ZenLunatic Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 And what does it mean to finish the job there? I'm more concerned with people dying. Terrorism will grow and prosper so long as we keep invading countries that don't want us there under false pretenses. Yeah, those are my feelings too. Link to post Share on other sites
cryptique Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Terrorism will grow and prosper so long as we keep invading countries that don't want us there under false pretenses.More importantly, (anti-U.S.) terrorism will grow and prosper as long as we continue to support Israel's brutal repression of the Palestinians. If the U.S. could find a way to broker a lasting peace between Israel and the Palestinians in a way that benefits all parties, one of the primary engines driving anti-U.S. terrorism will begin to wind down. Sadly, that ain't gonna happen any time soon. There's too much power, money, and influence here in the U.S. that's directed at keeping the Israeli hardliners in power. Link to post Share on other sites
EL the Famous Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 this thread is something. Link to post Share on other sites
lamradio Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 How do you know? And what does it mean to finish the job there? Who cares if they declare victory? Declarations are meaningless. I'm more concerned with people dying. Terrorism will grow and prosper so long as we keep invading countries that don't want us there under false pretenses. To finish the job would be to establish a government and restore order and peace.. We can't have another terrorist safe haven in the middle east... There are already too many now. It's not so much the actual declaration, but the idea that America gave up.. "ok, terrorists, you win..".. You're concerned with people dying? Many more will die if another Saddam takes over, or someone even worse.. Killing means nothing to Islamic fascists.. And how can I assume another terrible person will take over? Look at the bordering countries.. Terrorism will grow and prosper if we sit back and let dictators run countries and massacre their own people.. We're not the bad guys.. People need to understand that.. America is not this evil empire that so many have to come to believe these days.. Link to post Share on other sites
MrRain422 Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 To finish the job would be to establish a government and restore order and peace.. We can't have another terrorist safe haven in the middle east... There are already too many now. Just wanted to point out that Iraq was not a terrorist safe haven before we invaded. Of course this does not mean that leaving now will fix the current situation, but it has to make you question how well what we're doing is working and if it's even worth it. It's not so much the actual declaration, but the idea that America gave up.. "ok, terrorists, you win..".. You're concerned with people dying? Many more will die if another Saddam takes over, or someone even worse.. Killing means nothing to Islamic fascists.. And how can I assume another terrible person will take over? Look at the bordering countries.. So why can't we just declare victory before we leave? If we say that we achieved our goal and leave, then I guess they can't say we just gave up, right? How do you know more will die if another dictator takes over? There's a lot of evidence to suggest that Iraqis are dying more rapidly since our invasion than under Saddam. Are deaths by dictator worse than death by foreign military personnel, foreign private contractors, Iraqi insurgents, etc.? What's the difference? Terrorism will grow and prosper if we sit back and let dictators run countries and massacre their own people.. We're not the bad guys.. People need to understand that.. America is not this evil empire that so many have to come to believe these days.. So terrorism exists because we haven't overthrown enough governments? I don't think America is an evil empire, but that doesn't mean that we don't have some really awful policies that make our own situation worse. Link to post Share on other sites
JUDE Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 More importantly, (anti-U.S.) terrorism will grow and prosper as long as we continue to support Israel's brutal repression of the Palestinians. If the U.S. could find a way to broker a lasting peace between Israel and the Palestinians in a way that benefits all parties, one of the primary engines driving anti-U.S. terrorism will begin to wind down. Sadly, that ain't gonna happen any time soon. There's too much power, money, and influence here in the U.S. that's directed at keeping the Israeli hardliners in power. Good point, but I don't think it's quite that clear cut. I would argue the US expends quite an effort restraining the Israelis in their dealings with other nations in the region. A lot of those Link to post Share on other sites
cryptique Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 We're not the bad guys.. People need to understand that.What if we are, though? How would you know? I don't happen to think we are ... but a large chunk of the world thinks we are, and that's largely our own doing. You don't get people to "understand" that we're the good guys by invading countries for no reason, or by supporting dictators or repressive governments. Link to post Share on other sites
Tweedy's Gurl Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 -youtube video- this is why i'm gonna miss him. dear god he was amusing. Link to post Share on other sites
cryptique Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 [quote name='JUDE Link to post Share on other sites
MrRain422 Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 What if we are, though? How would you know? Because we are the glorious United States of America. Everything we do is inherently good, because we are the ones doing it. I don't happen to think we are ... but a large chunk of the world thinks we are, and that's largely our own doing. You don't get people to "understand" that we're the good guys by invading countries for no reason, or by supporting dictators or repressive governments. Well sure, there's that. Link to post Share on other sites
JUDE Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Worked real well for them in Lebanon in 2006, didn't it? The U.S. let that happen. That's a case where I didn't see a whole lot of effort being expended by the U.S. in restraining the Israelis. I stand corrected, you're right, it is that clear cut. Fuck Jimmy Carter, send cryptique to the middle east. Link to post Share on other sites
bobbob1313 Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 We should have never even gone into Iraq.This is not what we should be debating. The fact that people keep going back to this proves how little people actually think about things. Link to post Share on other sites
lamradio Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 I think I'll listen to some Wilco now. Link to post Share on other sites
Good Old Neon Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 This is not what we should be debating. The fact that people keep going back to this proves how little people actually think about things. With one post, in one fell swoop, in the space of a few brief keystrokes, you Link to post Share on other sites
Tweedy's Gurl Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 With one post, in one fell swoop, in the space of a few brief keystrokes, you Link to post Share on other sites
bobbob1313 Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 With one post, in one fell swoop, in the space of a few brief keystrokes, you Link to post Share on other sites
MattZ Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 I know I predicted this in the NSFW work thread, but it would have been too easy to predict it here. Link to post Share on other sites
bjorn_skurj Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Worked real well for them in Lebanon in 2006, didn't it? The U.S. let that happen. That's a case where I didn't see a whole lot of effort being expended by the U.S. in restraining the Israelis.Sigh. I am always troubled by the dissing on Israel. I agree that a resolution of the Palestinian question would be helpful, but I have the impression that for a lot of the Palestinians, the solution is Israel going away forever. Link to post Share on other sites
bjorn_skurj Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Explain to me how this is worth discussing at this time, with regards to policy making in Iraq going forward. Whether we should or should not have gone in 5 years ago is a non-issue in this election.Sure it is. It speaks to the judgment of those whose judgment needs to be very sound. Link to post Share on other sites
cryptique Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Sigh. I am always troubled by the dissing on Israel. I agree that a resolution of the Palestinian question would be helpful, but I have the impression that for a lot of the Palestinians, the solution is Israel going away forever.So what? The same could be said for a lot of Israelis in regard to Palestine/the Palestinians. The Israeli government deserves to be dissed because Israel has ALL of the power -- military, economic, territorial, etc. -- and they systematically oppress an entire population. Currently they're denying even basic supplies to the residents of the Gaza Strip. They have created a humanitarian crisis on a massive scale. They treat the Palestinians as less than human. The Palestinians are not wholly innocent, of course -- but because Israel has all the power, Israel deserves the lion's share of the blame for what's going on there now. Link to post Share on other sites
bobbob1313 Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Sure it is. It speaks to the judgment of those whose judgment needs to be very sound. Then the only person here whose judgment can be trusted by this criteria is Obama (And of course, Dr. Paul), since he is the only one who didn't vote to approve the war. We are there. Like I've said numerous times before, whether you agree with that decision made 5 years ago (I don't, for the record), it doesn't change the fact that we are there. The more important questions are should we pull out now? Will the means eventually be justified by the ends? Will invading other countries also be a bad move? Can we use the invasion to assess these questions? In some cases, sure we can. But should we actually be debating whether we made the right choice? I don't think so. We made the choice. Period. My thoughts on Israel is we should give them one last chance to broker peace and then get our interests out of there. We as a nation are being threatened by our continued blind support of their actions. They need to realize that they can't keep treating the Palestinians however they wish. We are supporting the oppression of the Palestinians through our support of Israel. Link to post Share on other sites
Good Old Neon Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Explain to me how this is worth discussing at this time, with regards to policy making in Iraq going forward. Whether we should or should not have gone in 5 years ago is a non-issue in this election. You Link to post Share on other sites
bjorn_skurj Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 So what? The same could be said for a lot of Israelis in regard to Palestine/the Palestinians. The Israeli government deserves to be dissed because Israel has ALL of the power -- military, economic, territorial, etc. -- and they systematically oppress an entire population. Currently they're denying even basic supplies to the residents of the Gaza Strip. They have created a humanitarian crisis on a massive scale. They treat the Palestinians as less than human. The Palestinians are not wholly innocent, of course -- but because Israel has all the power, Israel deserves the lion's share of the blame for what's going on there now.Arabs started two wars to try to destroy Israel, used scores of suicide bombers against civilians and continue to target Israeli citizens with rocket attacks. It was the Palestinians, or to be precise, elements of the Palestinians, who walked away from the Oslo Accords, not the Israelis. Link to post Share on other sites
bobbob1313 Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 You Link to post Share on other sites
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