New Election Thread

[Lammycat]

then get the scientists working to make males capable of conceiving, and carrying to term a pregnancy. (you forgot that little difference, i think.) oh, and also set the pregnant males up financially and in myriad other supportive ways in case they're stuck with a child they can't support if the woman runs off.

 

"birth control for a woman is also a choice." yes, although there's a big difference: every single birth control method for a woman is invasive, some more seriously than others. all a man has to do is pop on a condom.

So because a male can not biologically conceive (no fault of his own, mind you) he automatically gives up any say in whether his offspring comes to full term or not? Seems reasonable.

[sweetheart-mine]

So because a male can not biologically conceive (no fault of his own, mind you) he automatically gives up any say in whether his offspring comes to full term or not? Seems reasonable.

bottom-line: yes, that's right. life isn't fair.

 

why aren't you watching the game.

[ChooChooCharlie]

now i have a ballgame to watch. it starts in two minutes.

So because a male can not biologically conceive (no fault of his own, mind you) he automatically gives up any say in whether his offspring comes to full term or not? Seems reasonable.

"Just when I think I'm out, THEY PULL ME BACK IN!!!"

[ChooChooCharlie]

why aren't you watching the game.

because his wife won't give him the choice.

[lost highway]

Obama on Immigration? Whatcha think?

[kwall]

Obama on Immigration? Whatcha think?

 

i'm not familiar with his position on immigration. can you educate me?

[viatroy]

hey sweetheart-mine! I'm in the hood!

 

 

How about this. A couple agrees to engage in potentially baby-making activities. Baby making indeed takes place. She doesn't want it. He does. So, assuming she's extraordinarily altruistic and decides to carry it to term, go through labor, recovery, etc. she gives said baby to him, washes her hands of it. On top of it being a highly unlikely scenario, how likely is it that a dude will be willing to raise an infant entirely by himself? Hard for me to imagine a guy willing to make the sacrifices necessary to handle the 24/7 relentless parenting of an infant. Women do it all the time of course, but I personally don't know of a single case where a guy has done it.

 

 

No government is going to tell me I have to have a baby. Of course, blessedly, that's nearly a moot point by now.

 

Every Friday a group of antique men gather to harass anyone going in to Planned Parenthood in my town. I've asked them if they personally were willing to adopt adopt my unborn child. No takers.

[ChooChooCharlie]

Obama on Immigration? Whatcha think?

I think its clear he should be allowed to become an American citizen.

[lost highway]

i'm not familiar with his position on immigration. can you educate me?

 

I'm not all that clear myself. I was hoping for the same. His comment on it in the speech seemed, shall I say 'nebulous'. I'll look it up on the world wide world, but meanwhile maybe someone who knows will sound off?

[Hixter]

On top of it being a highly unlikely scenario, how likely is it that a dude will be willing to raise an infant entirely by himself? Hard for me to imagine a guy willing to make the sacrifices necessary to handle the 24/7 relentless parenting of an infant. Women do it all the time of course, but I personally don't know of a single case where a guy has done it.

 

I raised both of my children from infancy to adulthood by myself. Without a dime of support from their mother. Tens of thousands of men have done the same.

 

Women are not the only members of the species with the parenting instinct.

[ChooChooCharlie]

I'm not all that clear myself. I was hoping for the same. His comment on it in the speech seemed, shall I say 'nebulous'. I'll look it up on the world wide world, but meanwhile maybe someone who knows will sound off?

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/immigration/

 

I raised both of my children from infancy to adulthood by myself. Without a dime of support from their mother. Tens of thousands of men have done the same.

 

Women are not the only members of the species with the parenting instinct.

Ya know, I thought there might be one man in the history of time who has done that. Well done sir.

[lost highway]

Barack Obama's Plan

 

Create Secure Borders

From his site:

 

"Obama wants to preserve the integrity of our borders. He supports additional personnel, infrastructure and technology on the border and at our ports of entry.

Improve Our Immigration System

Obama believes we must fix the dysfunctional immigration bureaucracy and increase the number of legal immigrants to keep families together and meet the demand for jobs that employers cannot fill.

Remove Incentives to Enter Illegally

Obama will remove incentives to enter the country illegally by cracking down on employers who hire undocumented immigrants.

Bring People Out of the Shadows

Obama supports a system that allows undocumented immigrants who are in good standing to pay a fine, learn English, and go to the back of the line for the opportunity to become citizens.

Work with Mexico

Obama believes we need to do more to promote economic development in Mexico to decrease illegal immigration."

 

There's some good stuff in there. I don't know how you can send someone to the 'back of the line' without uprooting them in a most unfortunate way. I don't know if I have a better idea. Maybe secure the border like he said and then just give amnesty and document these folks so they can keep doing good work, raising their U.S. born children and start paying taxes.

 

There, I'm sure that's controversial fight about an immigrant's right to choose. I'll get another one going: "U.S.A. a dual language country. Make sure you know english, make sure you know spanish." Talk amongst yourselves I'm getting vaklempt.

[Central Scrutinizer]

How about this. A couple agrees to engage in potentially baby-making activities. Baby making indeed takes place. She doesn't want it. He does. So, assuming she's extraordinarily altruistic and decides to carry it to term, go through labor, recovery, etc. she gives said baby to him, washes her hands of it. On top of it being a highly unlikely scenario, how likely is it that a dude will be willing to raise an infant entirely by himself? Hard for me to imagine a guy willing to make the sacrifices necessary to handle the 24/7 relentless parenting of an infant. Women do it all the time of course, but I personally don't know of a single case where a guy has done it.

 

I did it with my first child. You know if a man bleated this sort of narrow-minded crap he'd be ganged up upon. Such insults against men would be passed off natural response to men.

[Central Scrutinizer]

I'm with ya on that, at least. I've spent all day reading political stuff online, and it's amazing how quickly, and inevitably, discussions about Palin arrive at objectification--often at the same sites that are supposed to be interested in gender equality.

I don't think it's amazing at all -- given that Republicans -- men and women alike -- found the easiest attacks on Hillary Clinton her looks, not anything about her politically.

[kwall]

How about this. A couple agrees to engage in potentially baby-making activities. Baby making indeed takes place. She doesn't want it.

 

i'm as big a fan of potentially baby-making activities as anyone, but you have to accept the fact that it is indeed potentially baby-making. this is where your choice is made. you may not want it, but you got it - as a result of your choice. now, you want to be absolved of the responsibility of dealing with the consequences of your choice. that's not a persuasive argument for me.

 

He does. So, assuming she's extraordinarily altruistic and decides to carry it to term, go through labor, recovery, etc. she gives said baby to him, washes her hands of it. On top of it being a highly unlikely scenario, how likely is it that a dude will be willing to raise an infant entirely by himself? Hard for me to imagine a guy willing to make the sacrifices necessary to handle the 24/7 relentless parenting of an infant. Women do it all the time of course, but I personally don't know of a single case where a guy has done it.

 

yes, i know, there are millions of irresponsible, selfish guys out there.

 

No government is going to tell me I have to have a baby.

 

before roe v. wade, the government didn't tell you you had to have a baby. it told you that once you had it, you weren't allowed to kill it.

 

i know, i know - by "have", you mean, give birth. you don't want any government to tell you to accept responsibility for the consequences of your actions. again, not persuasive for me.

[SeattleC]

I raised both of my children from infancy to adulthood by myself. Without a dime of support from their mother. Tens of thousands of men have done the same.

 

Women are not the only members of the species with the parenting instinct.

 

I know one dad in particular, who I highly respect, who raised his kids for years on his own and did a great job. Good on you for doing the same! This whole theme shouldn't be a question of choice for either the man or the woman, it should be question of choice for both, and usually, both are thinking alike about the situation, rather than disagreeing. But not always.... Given the history of world, and in particular, female oppression, I don't think any laws or customs should have absolute authority about allowing no choice for a pregnant female without regard to her situation. That's where the Republicans would like to take us, including Sarah Palin.

[Lammycat]

because his wife won't give him the choice.

Actually, my marriage was terminated.

[Central Scrutinizer]

Surprise of the election: michael Moore is still a fucking piece of shit.

But he's still in a dead heat with Bill O'Reilly

[viatroy]

Well congrats to you guys -- the very first I've ever known to have been the solo parent from day one. My experience has only shown me women who have done it on their own -- without financial, emotional or logistical support.

 

The question of when life begins is one of the unanswerables everyone must come to terms with on their own.

 

The decision must ultimately rest with the individual woman. One uterus, one vote.

[kwall]

Every Friday a group of antique men gather to harass anyone going in to Planned Parenthood in my town. I've asked them if they personally were willing to adopt adopt my unborn child. No takers.

 

i love this argument. if someone is trying to convince you to take responsibility for your actions, then they have to be willing to do it FOR you in order to be considered valid.

[SeattleC]

The question of when life begins is one of the unanswerables everyone must come to terms with on their own.

 

Indeed!

 

 

The decision must ultimately rest with the individual woman. One uterus, one vote.

 

Or, one uterus, two votes for Obama, if you have a similar minded spouse who also helped you raise your wanted kids.

[Hixter]

The decision must ultimately rest with the individual woman. One uterus, one vote.

 

What makes this such a contentious issue is that it isn't nearly as black and white as you'd like it to be. There are many, many shades of gray, and most of them favor the woman's position.

 

A woman can lie and say she's using birth control, but the man will still be liable for child support if she gives birth.

 

A woman can terminate the pregnancy at any (legal) time with the father having no say in the matter. This may seem somewhat reasonable in a one-night-stand situation, but not necessarily so in a long-term relationship or marriage.

 

In some cases, a man is required to pay child support for a baby that is not his own because he was married at the time and any offspring are considered his.

 

The mother is almost always awarded custody and child support.

 

These are not really related to Roe v. Wade; I doubt it'll ever be overturned. But fathers' rights have been woefully neglected historically. Things have been getting better over the last decade or so, but much work remains to be done - especially when it comes to financial support, custody and visitation.

 

In my case, I asked the judge about requiring my kids' mother to pay support and was told, "Just be happy you received custody." I doubt a judge would ever say that to a woman.

[caliber66]

See: Republican Anger Management . Couldn't find the link for a class near you, sorry man.

Bobbob is not a Republican, as far as I know. And he's right - Michael Moore is a distorting, disingenuous blowhard.

[sweetheart-mine]

hey sweetheart-mine! I'm in the hood!

 

 

No government is going to tell me I have to have a baby. Of course, blessedly, that's nearly a moot point by now.

hey viatroy, where have you been today!

 

i do know of quite a few men who take way more hands-on child-rearing responsibility than any in, say, my parents' generation. i've been downright impressed, truthfully. one of my brothers is a real hero on this front.

 

but . . . no government, for sure! do people really still protest outside planned-parenthood facilities? that strikes me as a particularly backward type of protest, you know? they should be driving people to planned parenthood, not waiting outside to keep them out -- it would cut down on the time they waste protesting at clinics that perform abortions.

 

say hi to troy for me

[viatroy]

I've been on the road to Maine! Currently in Freeport, tomorrow in Portland.