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Wilco (The Album Discussion w/ spoilers)


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I don't know about that.

the melody is there or it isn't.

 

and that can be a guitar melody, vocal melody, keyboard, whatever.

 

find me an amazing song that is only great because of it's production and that has nothing to do with it's bare music being good.

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I know everyone says this, but I don't see what's wrong with taking the negative viewpoint in a thread - I don't think I'm being rude, and am happy to discuss it. It's only an album, after all. I could discuss how disappointed I was with the last Super Furry Animals album if anyone was interested here, but they're not.

 

I agree with you. I misinterpreted your comments/joke. I'd be interested in hearing what you don't like about the album. Let's talk about the music instead of each other. :cheers

 

I'll go first -- how confidently can you judge the production on an album that you've heard either through downloaded mp3s or streaming over the internet?

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I agree with you. I misinterpreted your comments/joke. I'd be interested in hearing what you don't like about the album. Let's talk about the music instead of each other. :cheers

 

I'll go first -- how confidently can you judge the production on an album that you've heard either through downloaded mp3s or streaming over the internet?

 

true... while this is a higher quality stream than a lot of albums, i can definitely hear a lot of compression artifacts.

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I'm loving everything about "Sonny Feeling." Especially the harmonies. But absolutely everything that is going on in that song.

Yeah, the only song that has stood out so far for me as a first listen gem; can't understand the praise for BBN, kind of an annoying song.

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great production can help a good song be better, but no amount of shitty production can kill a great song (see most any song recorded prior to 1968)

 

hmmm. well that's just not true at all. production, in the sense i am talking, also includes choices of instrument, choice of tempo etc... as well - it's not just how they mixed or mastered something. and the production values of motown, sun, stax, atlantic, phil spectors work etc.... is still copied today. listen to Da Do Ron Ron and tell me if that is a good song because of the production or just because the song on paper was so good.

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hmmm. well that's just not true at all. production, in the sense i am talking, also includes choices of instrument, choice of tempo etc... as well - it's not just how they mixed or mastered something. and the production values of motown, sun, stax, atlantic, phil spectors work etc.... is still copied today. listen to Da Do Ron Ron and tell me if that is a good song because of the production or just because the song on paper was so good.

 

So now you're saying it doesn't matter about the production because you don't like the songs? Fair point, to be sure, but it entirely changes your argument.

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I agree with you. I misinterpreted your comments/joke. I'd be interested in hearing what you don't like about the album. Let's talk about the music instead of each other. :cheers

 

I'll go first -- how confidently can you judge the production on an album that you've heard either through downloaded mp3s or streaming over the internet?

 

I can only base that judgement on past experience. Obviously the vinyl or cd version will sound better, but that is the case with all other albums that leak and I think are good or bad production wise. The things that I really don't like about it are the acoustic guitar sound (which I can put money on is recorded through a pick-up like Tweedy plays on stage) - now that is done from what I'd guess, because the people doing the producing want to make life easy. An acoustic guitar recorded through a mic takes up far more frequencies across the sound spectrum than it does using a pick-up, so it's easier to make it stand out. Trouble is that it sounds shit. Also using a keyboard instead of a real piano has the same effect - in fact piano is incredibly hard to record well and make it fit in the mix. To record piano and make it not make the sound of everything muddy and lower in volume is very hard to do, which is actually why honky tonk piano often sounds best on many albums - cos it's got no real bottom end, and so can cut through the mix and not swamp the sound. The easy option is just to use a keyboard. Easy, but it doesn't sound as good. I also can't hear the bass through my speakers, and the drums sound compressed. I just don't like it. Compared to AGIB, which I think was one of the best sounding modern rock albums I can think of, this just sounds very very average.

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hmmm. well that's just not true at all. production, in the sense i am talking, also includes choices of instrument, choice of tempo etc... as well

those types of things are not usually considered part of production sorry, that's part of the songwriting craft (ESPECIALLY tempo, but what instrument to use as well)

 

now if you're talking what amps, pedals, effects, etc. used, fine.

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So now you're saying it doesn't matter about the production because you don't like the songs? Fair point, to be sure, but it entirely changes your argument.

 

no. when did i say that! :ohwell stop picking on me! :lol i said that production is very important to whether a song is good or not, solace seemed to be saying that production can't make a good song bad - i was trying to say that it can, but i seemed to do that in reverse! :lol

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no. when did i say that! :ohwell stop picking on me! :lol i said that production is very important to whether a song is good or not, solace seemed to be saying that production can't make a good song bad - i was trying to say that it can, but i seemed to do that in reverse! :lol

 

i said a GREAT song bad... get that straight :)

 

surely a merely good song can be hurt by bad production.

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(which I can put money on is recorded through a pick-up like Tweedy plays on stage)

 

Wilco has extensively documented (WB, IATTBYH, SBS DVD) that it absolutely DOES NOT cut corners on recording, and I think it's almost an insult to the band that you would insinuate (in this statement and other parts of your post) that they would have taken the easy way out. I think you're listening to a ripped, mp3 copy of the album and it probably sounds like a ripped mp3 copy.

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OK, a minor thing, but is anyone else hearing the melody of "On and On and On" in "I'll Fight"? :punch

 

Yeah I hear it. In fact I've been finding myself singing I'll Fight in my head, and next thing I know I'm humming On an On...

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those types of things are not usually considered part of production sorry, that's part of the songwriting craft (ESPECIALLY tempo, but what instrument to use as well)

 

now if you're talking what amps, pedals, effects, etc. used, fine.

 

producers definately tell bands to play in different tempos and what instruments to play, of course it's part of production. an engineer is more likely to deal with amps etc.. and then the producer will say yes or no and blah blah blah.

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Wilco has extensively documented (WB, IATTBYH, SBS DVD) that it absolutely DOES NOT cut corners on recording, and I think it's almost an insult to the band that you would insinuate (in this statement and other parts of your post) that they would have taken the easy way out. I think you're listening to a ripped, mp3 copy of the album and it probably sounds like a ripped mp3 copy.

 

so you're saying he's not recorded his guitar parts through a pick-up (santa cruz acoustic, i think it is) and the piano is a real piano?

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On my third listen ... sounds good so far, but I'm withholding my full opinion for a later time.

 

I'm not thoroughly convinced yet by "Country Disappeared," "Solitaire," and "I'll Fight," and I'm not sure I hear as much greatness in "Sonny Feeling" as many of you do (though I definitely hear some).

 

The first half of the record is rock-solid in my book, but I still need to work through my feelings about the rest of it.

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How many great songs have bad production? It's all part of the same package - a great song needs great production to make it great.

 

And it's subjective! I have an Elliott Smith b-side that sounds like it was recording on a cassette player in another room and converted to mp3, but it's a damned good song. The quality of the recording (including production) means not a damned thing to me if the song itself is top notch. You're talking about the artifact, which to me is something entirely separate than the song.

 

And from what I've seen/read on all the DVDs/Wilco Book, Wilco have recorded pianos with pianos, and guitars with mics.

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producers definately tell bands to play in different tempos and what instruments to play, of course it's part of production. an engineer is more likely to deal with amps etc.. and then the producer will say yes or no and blah blah blah.

sometimes for sure they do, but more often than not they don't get that involved.

it's a double-edged sword imo, overbearing producers vs. producers who don't ask enough of bands.

 

and a lot of times the engineer is the same person as the producer, so there's also that.

 

How many great songs have bad production? It's all part of the same package - a great song needs great production to make it great.

oh man... if you truly believe this i feel really really sorry for you and I don't think i can continue arguing at this point. a TRULY great song needs no production at all and stands on its own played by a person on just an acoustic guitar or piano live in front of people.

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the melody is there or it isn't.

 

and that can be a guitar melody, vocal melody, keyboard, whatever.

 

find me an amazing song that is only great because of it's production and that has nothing to do with it's bare music being good.

 

I took Aman's "I don't know about that" to be a reply to your "any record before 1968" statement - meaning, early rock n roll is not automatically poorly produced, aka better technology does not equal better production.

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This album clicked right away for me. I hope that ends up being a good thing. I think it will because I notice emotion translated really well on this album. SBS reminded of a Grateful Dead record - a collection of songs faithfully put to tape that were meant to be played live. This one here is a real record. One Wing, You And I, and Everlasting are standouts for me right now. I loved One Wing live (real gritty and spacy), I love this version (sorry for the pun, but it soars; it sounds great and very emotionally resonant), and I can't wait to see this live in the future. I hope they don't hold back on this one because it is kind of restrained on the record (Don't get me wrong I think it's perfect for a recorded version, but live they need to get crazy)

 

Anyone else with me on the emotionally resonant thing? I'm really "feeling" a lot of these songs. It's hard to put that into words, but you know kind of choked up at certain moments?

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