Arizona mass shooting

[cryptique]

An Arizona congresswoman is fighting for her life after being shot by a deranged douchebag; several are dead; many more are wounded

 

It's time for the likes of Glenn Beck to tone down the rhetoric. We used to disagree respectfully in this country; now we'd rather shoot than listen.

 

The more one side characterizes the other side as being "anti-American" and wanting to "destroy" or "weaken" America, the more polarized we become, and the more likely these kinds of incidents become.

 

The words of the Pima County Sheriff, Clarence Dupnik, are instructive (quoted here from a CNN story):

 

Dupnik suggested that such rhetoric can have deadly consequences.

 

"We need to do some soul searching," Dupnik told reporters. "It's the vitriolic rhetoric that we hear day in and day out from people in the radio business and some people in the TV business.

 

"When you look at unbalanced people, how they respond to the vitriol that comes out of certain mouths about tearing down the government, the anger, the hatred, the bigotry that goes on in this county is getting to be outrageous. Unfortunately, Arizona, I think, has become sort of the capital," Dupnik continued.

 

"We have become the mecca for prejudice and bigotry," Dupnik said.

 

Arizona is a Republican stronghold where the party members hold a two-thirds majority in both chambers of the legislature and occupy the governor's office.

 

Dupnik is a Democrat.

 

"People who are unbalanced may be especially susceptible to vitriol," Dupnik said. "It's not unusual for all public officials to get threatened constantly, myself included. That's the sad thing that's going on in America. Pretty soon we're not going to be able to find reasonable people to subject themselves to serving the public."

 

Dupnik returned to the theme later in the press conference.

 

"People tend to pooh-pooh this business about the vitriol that inflames American public opinion by the people who make a living off of that. That may be free speech but it's not without consequences," Dupnik said.

 

Keith Olbermann said it even better:

 

 

CUT THE SHIT, PEOPLE.

[M. (hristine]

Yeah and Marilyn Manson was responsible for the Columbine massacre.

[uncool2pillow]

I have mixed feelings about this. Having read Columbine, it's obvious that Eric Harris was a true "psychopath" and that the cultural factors the media wanted to play had a very limited role. It's way too early to ascribe motivations to the suspect in yesterday's tragedy. Yet pundits like Keith Olbermann are already exploiting this tragedy to ascribe blame to their political opponents. We have no idea what was going through this sick person's brain yet. Had he seen Palin's disgusting cross-hairs? We have no evidence to suggest he had.

 

We have an incredibly polluted culture, both political and popular. I don't think you can separate that from the actions of people who live in that culture. While Eric Harris was mentally ill, playing first-person shooter video games clearly inspired parts of his actions at Columbine if not the actions themselves. One only has to look at how he and Klebold dressed and "posed" that day as captured on security cameras to see the connection to shoot-em-up video games.

 

Olbermann is absolutely right to call for a softening of political discourse, but I find his ascribing of blame in this shooting, even tangential blame premature and exploitative of the tragedy.

 

One last thought: As I was typing this rambling thought, the news showed a picture of the suspect in a Slipknot t-shirt. It's hard for me to imagine that someone who wears a Slipknot t-shirt as a hard core fan of Palin and the other tea party types who Olbermann wants to blame.

[M. (hristine]

Thank you uncool2pillow. I have grown so weary of reactionary opinions.

 

We're becoming like two tribes of lemmings, mindlessly hurling ourselves over the cliffs of the us/them mentality. Has we lost the ability to think for ourselves?

 

 

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2011/01/09/alleged_gunman_connected_to_bizarre_internet_postings/

[twoshedsjackson]

M. (hristine, I agree, but it's really hard not to jump to the conclusion that this nut had political (or, more likely, Religious) reasons for doing this. Beck, Palin, and their cohorts have been stoking the fire for a long time. This was sadly inevitable.

 

ps. Lemming don't actually hurl themselves from cliffs.

[M. (hristine]

 

ps. Lemming don't actually hurl themselves from cliffs.

 

I should have clarified my cultural metaphor.

[M. (hristine]

M. (hristine, I agree, but it's really hard not to jump to the conclusion that this nut had political (or, more likely, Religious) reasons for doing this. Beck, Palin, and their cohorts have been stoking the fire for a long time. This was sadly inevitable.

 

Also, if you read the link I posted, preliminary investigations into the shooter's background have uncovered a young man deeply troubled, not by religion or the Democratic party, but by all institutions. Community college for example.

[cryptique]

Yet pundits like Keith Olbermann are already exploiting this tragedy to ascribe blame to their political opponents.

He's spreading blame equally, even accepting some himself. Yes, he mentioned those on the other side of the political fence more prominently, but the hateful rhetoric has been more prevalent on that side -- and this really is beyond dispute (where's the liberal counterpart to Glenn Beck? Ann Coulter? Rush Limbaugh? There are no such people -- or at least, none who have TV/radio shows). Did you watch the video?

[The High Heat]

This guy may have had only one target, but he went well beyond his goal. Many of the victims were elderly and one was 9 year old Christina-Taylor Green. She was born on 9-11-01 and was the grand daughter of former Philadelphia Phillies manager Dallas Green.

 

I fail to see the point in hurting anyone, let alone the most innocent. That's why it's called lunacy.

[cryptique]

I deleted an earlier post just now that some may have seen, because I'm still very angry about this incident and I went off half-cocked about something.

 

I mention this because, regardless of what the shooter's motivations turn out to be in this case, my point in that now-deleted post, and the point the Keith Olbermann makes, is no less true whether the shooter was motivated by Sarah Palin or Glenn Beck or anyone else, or whether he was simply a lunatic who decided entirely on his own to attack a congresswoman. That point is this:

 

The incendiary rhetoric surrounding politics has gotten WAY out of hand, and that unless something is done to bring hostilities back to a mild simmer instead of the current rolling boil, there WILL be violent incidents inspired by that rhetoric. Let's face it, there already have been.

 

This incident may not be among them -- that remains to be seen. But even if it's proven to be completely unrelated, it's still a fact that both sides need to cool it and we need to return to respectful disagreement instead of hatred and violent rhetoric. This is a democracy, and we are bound to disagree on things, but that does not give anyone the right to advocate violence, explicitly or implicitly, nor to actually commit violence.

 

Olbermann named names on the right because those are the people who most prominently spread such vitriol. If there were a liberal counterpart to Glenn Beck or Sarah Palin -- someone who has the platform of a national media program watched or listened to by millions who makes winking references to violence when speaking of political opponents -- then it would be important to call out that person too. I can't think of any such person on the left -- not Olbermann, not anyone. And so it may seem to some that Olbermann was trying to turn this back on his political opponents, but look at the facts: right-wingers dominate such programs, and liberals are virtually unseen/unheard. It's pretty clear where the most violent rhetoric is coming from, and it's not from the gun-control crowd.

[M. (hristine]

I don't know what led to this attack and neither do you. I do understand that such horrors arise from mental derangement combined with opportunity. Our culture is lousy with violent rhetoric for those with an appetite.

 

My problem is this: What I have read about this killer does not make him a good poster boy for the liberal cause. To divisively politicize this mass murder before the smoke has even cleared is media pandering of the most despicable kind.

[uncool2pillow]

Tom, I watched about 1/2 to 3/4 of the video. I honestly got tired of his holier than thou tone, so missed the portion you reference. I may go back and watch it later.

 

I want to add this:

 

There is enormous tragedy with this shooting. So many innocent people dead and injured. The intended target may live, let's all hope (and pray if like me, you're so inclined) so. Congressperson Giffords seems like a rarity these days. From what I have read, she seems to be an honest, caring, thoughtful politician who was devoted to public service, not self-publicity, personal enrichment, or zealous devotion to a political dogma.

[Good Old Neon]

Yeah and Marilyn Manson was responsible for the Columbine massacre.

 

See, that analogy doesn't work for me. Though his songs cover dark subject matter, to my knowledge, Marilyn Manson never went out of his way to single out jocks, the popular crowd, etc, for punishment. Whereas, Beck, Limbaugh, Palin, et al compare liberals to traitors, insist they are willfully attempting to bring this country down, subvert it, etc. I read Cullen's Columbine, and I get where you're coming from, but I feel there is a distincition to be made between this event, and the circus environment that quickly descended on Columbine.

 

From Andrew Sullivan's site:

 

3.31 pm A reader writes:

 

I am standing in the aisle at Costco when I found out my Congresswomen, Gabrielle Giffords, has been shot dead up on the north side.

 

While I’m scrambling with my phone, two couples in front of me are talking about it and suddenly I hear one of the women say, “Well, that’s to be expected when you’re so liberal.”

 

And the other woman says, “Ohh, so we get to appoint a Republican?”

 

I did not trust myself to speak. I’m a Soldier. Please remind me what country I am fighting for? At least seven people are dead. She happens to be the only member of Congress married to an active duty military — he’s a Navy officer serving as an astronaut.

[uncool2pillow]

See, that analogy doesn't work for me. Though his songs cover dark subject matter, to my knowledge, Marilyn Manson never went out of his way to single out jocks, the popular crowd, etc, for punishment. Whereas, Beck, Limbaugh, Palin, et al compare liberals to traitors, insist they are willfully attempting to bring this country down, subvert it, etc. I read Cullen's Columbine, and I get where you're coming from, but I feel there is a distincition to be made between this event, and the circus environment that quickly descended on Columbine.

 

From Andrew Sullivan's site:

 

3.31 pm A reader writes:

 

I am standing in the aisle at Costco when I found out my Congresswomen, Gabrielle Giffords, has been shot dead up on the north side.

 

While I’m scrambling with my phone, two couples in front of me are talking about it and suddenly I hear one of the women say, “Well, that’s to be expected when you’re so liberal.”

 

And the other woman says, “Ohh, so we get to appoint a Republican?”

 

I did not trust myself to speak. I’m a Soldier. Please remind me what country I am fighting for? At least seven people are dead. She happens to be the only member of Congress married to an active duty military — he’s a Navy officer serving as an astronaut.

I think you missed the point. I believe the point being made is this: Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold didn't listen to much Marilyn Manson and early indications are that Jared Laughner didn't listen to much Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin, or Rush Limbaugh.

 

Like I said earlier, they pollute the culture as do a lot of other things. And all the background noise of divisiveness and hatred in politics, entertainment, video games, etc. takes its toll on all of us in ways we cannot quantify, but to use this tragedy to blame political opponents when no evidence exists to support it is plain wrong.

[hazel]

I think you missed the point. I believe the point being made is this: Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold didn't listen to much Marilyn Manson and early indications are that Jared Laughner didn't listen to much Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin, or Rush Limbaugh.

 

Like I said earlier, they pollute the culture as do a lot of other things. And all the background noise of divisiveness and hatred in politics, entertainment, video games, etc. takes its toll on all of us in ways we cannot quantify, but to use this tragedy to blame political opponents when no evidence exists to support it is plain wrong.

 

i have a feeling some evidence is gonna surface. im sick of all this hatred from the right so called "christian" conservatives..just sick of it. palin beck and limbaugh disgust me.

 

See, that analogy doesn't work for me. Though his songs cover dark subject matter, to my knowledge, Marilyn Manson never went out of his way to single out jocks, the popular crowd, etc, for punishment. Whereas, Beck, Limbaugh, Palin, et al compare liberals to traitors, insist they are willfully attempting to bring this country down, subvert it, etc. I read Cullen's Columbine, and I get where you're coming from, but I feel there is a distincition to be made between this event, and the circus environment that quickly descended on Columbine.

 

From Andrew Sullivan's site:

 

3.31 pm A reader writes:

 

I am standing in the aisle at Costco when I found out my Congresswomen, Gabrielle Giffords, has been shot dead up on the north side.

 

While I’m scrambling with my phone, two couples in front of me are talking about it and suddenly I hear one of the women say, “Well, that’s to be expected when you’re so liberal.”

 

And the other woman says, “Ohh, so we get to appoint a Republican?”

 

I did not trust myself to speak. I’m a Soldier. Please remind me what country I am fighting for? At least seven people are dead. She happens to be the only member of Congress married to an active duty military — he’s a Navy officer serving as an astronaut.

 

 

my stomach turned when i read what those 2 women said...sickens me

[uncool2pillow]

i have a feeling some evidence is gonna surface. im sick of all this hatred from the right so called "christian" conservatives..just sick of it. palin beck and limbaugh disgust me.

 

 

 

 

my stomach turned when i read what those 2 women said...sickens me

The evidence may or may not turn out. Your perception of this guy's motives have very little to do with his actual motives. Let the investigation continue before you jump to conclusions.

 

As far as the quote from the Sullivan blog, I would say this: What some random, anonymous internet person says these women said sickens me.

[M. (hristine]

i have a feeling some evidence is gonna surface. im sick of all this hatred from the right so called "christian" conservatives..just sick of it. palin beck and limbaugh disgust me.

 

Did a Christian conservative or any of those three people murder Christina Greene yesterday?

 

Unless there is a proven connection between those three people and/or Christian conservatives and the motive for mass murder, ones feelings about them are not relevant to this tragedy.

[hazel]

i didn't say they killed her, did i?

 

i said i was sick of their hate talk and the ones doing the hate talk are the christian conservatives/tea baggers. not very christian if you ask me.

 

Asked by the New York Post in the wake of the shooting if Giffords had any enemies, her father responded, "Yeah. The whole Tea Party."

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20027918-503544.html

[dark]

I have commented on this on my Face Book page but it is highly irresponsible to jump to the conclusion that this was the results of Right Wing Political Vitriol ... there is no evidence of that at this point .. it could have easlily been Left Wing Vitriol ... of which there is alot ... read the blogs ... people should stop using this tradgedy to score political points but I digress this killer could have had voices in his head, little green men any number of potential reasons he killed ...my guess he is just another Ted Kazcinski ... a crazy MoFo .....I am a Conservative.. probably not alot of us here on VC and I normally wouldnt voice any political opinion here because I am here for the music and the community

[Guest Speed Racer]

Calling this man a Republican or a conservative and blaming it on that would be like saying he did this because he had 'x' color eyes. He was mentally ill; regardless of what his supposed accomplice did or did not do, this kid carried out these acts as a sick individual, and not anything else.

[dark]

agreed

 

Calling this man a Republican or a conservative and blaming it on that would be like saying he did this because he had 'x' color eyes. He was mentally ill; regardless of what his supposed accomplice did or did not do, this kid carried out these acts as a sick individual, and not anything else.

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

M. (hristine, I agree, but it's really hard not to jump to the conclusion that this nut had political (or, more likely, Religious) reasons for doing this.

ps. Lemming don't actually hurl themselves from cliffs.

 

 

Guess we need to watch our resident atheists then. And the nihilists.

[kidsmoke]

And yet a sick mind can certainly be influenced by a sickness in society. Whatever drove him, it's a tragic situation.

[hazel]

And yet a sick mind can certainly be influenced by a sickness in society. Whatever drove him, it's a tragic situation.

 

agree

[hazel]

I deleted an earlier post just now that some may have seen, because I'm still very angry about this incident and I went off half-cocked about something.

 

I mention this because, regardless of what the shooter's motivations turn out to be in this case, my point in that now-deleted post, and the point the Keith Olbermann makes, is no less true whether the shooter was motivated by Sarah Palin or Glenn Beck or anyone else, or whether he was simply a lunatic who decided entirely on his own to attack a congresswoman. That point is this:

 

The incendiary rhetoric surrounding politics has gotten WAY out of hand, and that unless something is done to bring hostilities back to a mild simmer instead of the current rolling boil, there WILL be violent incidents inspired by that rhetoric. Let's face it, there already have been.

 

This incident may not be among them -- that remains to be seen. But even if it's proven to be completely unrelated, it's still a fact that both sides need to cool it and we need to return to respectful disagreement instead of hatred and violent rhetoric. This is a democracy, and we are bound to disagree on things, but that does not give anyone the right to advocate violence, explicitly or implicitly, nor to actually commit violence.

 

Olbermann named names on the right because those are the people who most prominently spread such vitriol. If there were a liberal counterpart to Glenn Beck or Sarah Palin -- someone who has the platform of a national media program watched or listened to by millions who makes winking references to violence when speaking of political opponents -- then it would be important to call out that person too. I can't think of any such person on the left -- not Olbermann, not anyone. And so it may seem to some that Olbermann was trying to turn this back on his political opponents, but look at the facts: right-wingers dominate such programs, and liberals are virtually unseen/unheard. It's pretty clear where the most violent rhetoric is coming from, and it's not from the gun-control crowd.

 

agree