Arizona mass shooting

[ih8music]

Nice to see a tragedy like this bring the country together

 

It is ridiculous to lay blame for this shooting on anything partisan right now. Yes, the violent rhetoric and imagery by the likes of Palin, Angle, Beck, etc. is wrong -- but short of actual evidence that this guy was influenced by that in any way, it's ridiculous to blame them for this incident. Yes, they are guilty of many things related to political discourse and divisiveness -- but I've yet to see anything which attributes them to this shooting.

 

Apparently the shooter was also active on some white supremacist / anti-semite sites -- so the fact that Giffords was Jewish could have been the cause. He was also an anti-government conspiracist -- so her party affiliation might have had no influence and he was just looking to kill a member, any member, of Congress. Or, maybe he just wanted to kill as many people as possible in the easiest setting and knew about these 'congress on the corner' events and how there was basically no security to stop him? Or a hundred other scenarios.

 

To jump on this story and try to score political points right now -- before we know ANYTHING about his motives -- is despicable.

 

How 'bout some love for the lady who grabbed the magazine out of the dude's hand?

Amen. Also the dudes who tackled him and ripped away the gun, as well as the intern who sat her up and provided compression on her head wound until paramedics arrived. Many heros.

[Good Old Neon]

From Andrew Sullivan:

 

Palin responds via beck with what appears to me to be a renewed threat of violence:

 

I hate violence. I hate war. Our children will not have peace if politicos just capitalize on this to succeed in portraying anyone as inciting terror and violence.

 

It's barely literate, but what can it mean that children "will not have peace" if people are held morally responsible for consequences of their violent rhetoric? How can asking people to turn the volume down lead to an absence of peace? Then this:

 

According to Beck he wrote to her saying:

 

“Sarah, as you know, peace is always the answer. I know you are feeling the same heat, if not much more on this. I want you to know you have my full support."

 

He then encouraged her to get some protection because an "attempt on you could bring the Republic down."

 

Way to calm things down - by presaging a civil war based on an assassination attempt on Palin. It takes projection to an entirely new level.

 

link - http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2011/01/palin-responds-via-beck.html

 

And to prove he's just the world's biggest douchebag, whatever the outcome of this whole mess, Rush makes a list:

 

WASHINGTON -- Rush Limbaugh lashed out Monday at critics who linked the Tucson shootings to the confrontational, gun-themed rhetoric of conservatives such as Sarah Palin and the Tea Party.

 

Limbaugh's talking points are a guide to the ways in which the political right -- from establishment Republicans in Washington to the Tea Party at the grassroots level -- will fight back against attempts to tie them to Jared Lee Loughner.

 

The political coverage of the Loughner story is "childish and immature," Limbaugh said, but apparently threatening enough for the top-rated talk show host to spend his entire show undermining it as best he could.

 

His very long list of points:

 

LOUGHNER IS A LONE NUT. Even "the Obama government" -- the FBI -- calls Loughner a "deranged, insular irrational kid" who acted alone, Limbaugh said. "The kid was evil. He was into the occult. He had an altar with a skull in his yard. Was God in his life? He was stalking the congresswoman."

 

HEAVY METAL. "The guy listened to heavy metal, and some of that anarchist stuff. We're dealing with an insane individual."

 

 

DIDN'T WATCH FOX. "There is no evidence that he listened to talk radio. There is no evidence he listened to Fox News. There is no evidence that he saw Sarah Palin's Facebook page. No evidence he saw her lame website with the crosshairs."

 

 

BLAME THE PARENTS. "Where are the parents? Are they derelicts? He was so devoted to marijuana he wanted to make it the new U.S. currency. Did anyone try to institutionalize him?"

 

 

SHERIFF COVERING HIS OWN BUTT. "This kid sounds like he was very well known as a dangerous element around town. If there is a file somewhere about this kid in the sheriff's office," said Rush, and the sheriff had failed to act, then he would be partly responsible for the tragedy in Arizona on Saturday. "If he was so concerned about the Tea Party, where was security for this congresswoman's event on Saturday?"

 

 

DUPNIK IS A DEMOCRAT. "This Sheriff, Clarence Dupnik, is an anti-conservative."

 

 

WHERE'S THE SAFETY NET? "Loughner is obviously deranged, so where's the left's safety net? Haven't we spent trillions of dollars to build a system to catch these disturbed people? Where is the evidence that their compassion works?"

 

 

THE OKLAHOMA CITY TEMPLATE. "Sad tragedies, where people die, are seen first as political opportunities by these people," Rush said. "The Republicans had nothing to do with the bombing at Oklahoma City, but it was seen as a political opportunity for Bill Clinton. This is now the same template."

 

 

CRIMINALIZING SPEECH. "They're shutting down any opposition and criminalizing it. They've had a plan filed away in a drawer to take away as many of our political freedoms as they can. The Democrats just lost an election, and now the only other thing they can try to do is silence the opposition."

 

 

HYPOCRITES ON VIOLENCE. It's not the right, Limbaugh said, but the left that glorifies criminal behavior and violent imagery. "'No, no,' they say, 'that's art!' Rap music? 'That's art!'"

 

 

DEMOCRATS ARE GHOULS. They privately are thankful for Tucson because "they think it advances their sick and perverted purposes." Mark Penn, who was Bill Clinton's polltaker, said -- before Tucson -- that "Obama needs his own Oklahoma City."

 

 

DEMOCRATS v. THE MAJORITY. By linking Loughner to the right, Limbaugh warned, Democrats are "taking aim at a majority of the people in the country. This is not 1988, or 1993, when the drive-by media had total control. I am not going to be silenced," he said, but now he has too many allies. "They're accusing a majority of Americans of being accomplices to murder."

 

 

A DIRECT DENIAL. "At no time has anybody ever called for violence," Limbaugh said. "We've never subtly promoted it." And, by the way, the Democrats' language is and was worse.

 

Link - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/10/rush-bails-water-arizona_n_806912.html

[hazel]

In a word, no.

 

Though, I find it interesting that Palin acted awfully quickly to pull down from her websites any reference to the now infamous crosshairs map. I guess she and her camp feel that in light of the shootings, maybe it’s a little inappropriate. Though, that she now all of a sudden finds her own rhetoric insensitive and inappropriate strikes me as funny, as if it wasn’t before, the shit that comes out of her mouth on a pretty much daily basis.

[hazel]

The only person at fault for this murderous act is Loughner. He did it. That said, it is still irresponsible for Palin to do the 'crosshairs' thing, for Giffords opponent to have the M16 'help take Giffords out of office' rally, Helms (I think) saying some nonsense about Clinton being shot if he went to North Carolina, and radio and tv pundits with their bombastic violent imagery, etc.

 

The only reason that they do these kinds of things is to get 'ratings', if you will. They are all intelligent enough to know that that type of imagery and rhetoric ratchets everything up several notches. Are they responsible for how their words and images may be interpreted by an unbalanced person? No but that doesn't absolve them from being disingenuous sacks of shit when they say, "That isn't what I meant" and "I condemn this person", etc., etc. Who will be the first among them to say, "I will no longer make these kinds of hyperbolic statements. I am not responsible for these violent actions but I also want no connection to them in any way. I urge all of my fellow politicians, commentators, etc. to join me in a pledge of responsibility".

 

Would acts like these happen even if the political landscape were devoid of that type of nonsense?, of course. But influential people should use their influence responsibly.

[dark]

and there is still no evidence he was inspired by what some here consider inflamatory rhetoric. I suspect there never will be any. This is not to say thet there shouldnt be a toning down of rhetoric... but for every piece of right wing vitriol that my liberal friends can point out I can point out a Left Wing piece of vitriol

 

and there is still no evidence he was inspired by what some here consider inflamatory rhetoric. I suspect there never will be any. This is not to say thet there shouldnt be a toning down of rhetoric... but for every piece of right wing vitriol that my liberal friends can point out I can point out a Left Wing piece of vitriol

 

and I really dont want to get into that game

[ikol]

Has anyone figured out whom to blame since I've been gone?

[mpolak21]

Has anyone figured out whom to blame since I've been gone?

 

"We should all learn a lesson from the Tucson shooting, and today, anyone with a byline is going to teach it to us."

--Neal Pollack.

[Guest Jules]

If there was ever a time to fast-track the death penalty, this is it. But he'll live just fine in an institution somewhere.

[cryptique]

and there is still no evidence he was inspired by what some here consider inflamatory rhetoric. I suspect there never will be any. This is not to say thet there shouldnt be a toning down of rhetoric... but for every piece of right wing vitriol that my liberal friends can point out I can point out a Left Wing piece of vitriol

I doubt this very much. Not violent vitriol.

[Beltmann]

I doubt this very much. Not violent vitriol.

There's plenty of similar tactics among the fringes of both sides (which has always been true). The difference right now, though, is that one side has become far more willing to tolerate such rhetoric within their mainstream channels, too.

[dark]

I doubt this very much. Not violent vitriol.

 

Its really not that difficult to come up with Left Wing Vitriol ...

 

“So, Michele (Bachman), slit your wrist! Go ahead! I mean, you know, why not? I mean, if you want to — or, you know, do us all a better thing. Move that knife up about two feet. I mean, start right at the collarbone.” – Montel Williams, September 2, 2009.

 

“He is an enemy of the country, in my opinion. Dick Cheney is an enemy of the country....Lord, take him to the Promised Land, will you? See, I don’t even wish the guy goes to Hell, I just want to get him the hell out of here.” – Ed Schultz, May 11, 2009

 

“Cheney, by the way, looks very ruddy. I couldn’t get over that. Like, he must have feasted on a Jewish baby, or a Muslim baby. He must have sent his people out to get one and bring it back so he could drink its blood.” – Mike Malloy, October 22, 2009.

 

“[Representative Michele Bachmann is] a hatemonger. She’s the type of person that would have gladly rounded up the Jews in Germany and shipped them off to death camps....This is an evil bitch from Hell.” – Mike Malloy, October 17, 2008.

 

Can you believe that this society produced a filthy human being like that? A society that has, uh, in its element, corporate America that determines this pig - this pig is worth 50 million dollars a year; that's 1 million a week! This filthy dehumanized pig is worth that? I get him when the lights are out, he's mine, there's no question about that! None! - Mike Malloy Lib Talker

 

Murdoch is a Nazi; Murdoch is a Nazi! And everyone that works for him is a potential murderer! Do you not -- do you not get that? Why does anybody in this administration pay any attention whatsoever to anything these people say? They shouldn't be listened to; they should be dragged into the street and pummeled! And I'd be very happy to be the first person to do it. - Mike Malloy Lib Talker

 

"The Republican Party needs to be executed as quickly as possible." - Mike Malloy

 

Michelle (Bachman), slit your wrist. Go ahead... or, do us all a better thing Move that knife up about two feet.Start right at the collarbone. - Montel Williams

 

All very helpful and kind rhetoric

 

 

 

 

[dark]

But I am done because I really dont come to VC for politics or argueing .. I get plenty of that elsewhere

[Doug C]

Mike Malloy? Ed Schultz sounds vaguely familiar. Montel Williams still has a show? Do any of these people have anything remotely close to a Limbaugh/Beck/Palin following and/or credibility within the 'left'? I'm not saying that liberal vitriol doesn't exist but is it an accurate comparison to offer these people up?

[cryptique]

I've never heard of Mike Malloy.

[tinnitus photography]

I've never heard of Mike Malloy.

 

 

apparently he is the left wing attack dog.

 

 

 

i guess he's not doing such a hot job as I've never heard of him either.

[cryptique]

...and that pretty much proves the point. There's evidently one obscure left-wing nutcase out there who says a lot of stupid shit, plus a few random quotes from less obscure nutcases (you obviously liked the Montel Williams quote so much that you included it twice).

 

The rhetoric from the right is featured prominently on mainstream outlets (Fox News, etc.). One does not need to search very deeply to find it.

 

There are morons with violent fantasies on both sides, but the right has let many more of them ascend onto platforms that give them nationwide exposure.

[Good Old Neon]

Stephen Budiansky:

 

For as long as I can remember, I have heard conservatives blaming everything that is wrong in the universe, from violent crime to declining test scores to teen pregnancy to rude children to declining patriotism to probably athlete's foot . . . upon Dr. Spock, Hollywood liberals, the abolition of prayer in school, Bill Clinton, the "liberal 1960s," the teaching of evolution — in other words, upon symbols, rhetoric, cultural norms, and the values expressed by political and media leaders. Yet from the moment when someone gets a gun in their hands, apparently, society ceases to have any influence whatsoever on the outcome and individual responsibility takes hold 100%. Something is driving the tripling of death threats against congressmen (and the concomitant rise in threats against Federal judges and other villains of the right, from Forest Service rangers to climate scientists) and it isn't the sunspot cycle.

 

link - http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2011/01/riding-that-tiger-iv.html

[Oil Can Boyd]

"I wouldn't blame our political rhetoric any more than I would blame heavy metal music for Columbine. And by the way, that is coming from someone who truly hates our political environment." -- Jon Stewart

 

I thought his opening last night was pretty good.

[ikol]

...and that pretty much proves the point. There's evidently one obscure left-wing nutcase out there who says a lot of stupid shit, plus a few random quotes from less obscure nutcases (you obviously liked the Montel Williams quote so much that you included it twice).

 

The rhetoric from the right is featured prominently on mainstream outlets (Fox News, etc.). One does not need to search very deeply to find it.

 

There are morons with violent fantasies on both sides, but the right has let many more of them ascend onto platforms that give them nationwide exposure.

 

Are you unaware of some the things Olbermann has said or do you just think that depicting Rush Limbaugh getting shot or suggesting the President kick Mitch McConnell's ass are not violent rhetoric? I think everyone here agrees that hateful rhetoric needs to stop on both sides, but that will never happen if people like Olbermann are taken seriously by the left. And again, this probably has nothing to do with the Arizona shooting (despite the media almost immediately and irresponsibly making the connection before they knew anything about the shooter). If this guy is psychotic, society likely has little to no influence on him. It is impossible to talk schizophrenics out of their delusions.

[Good Old Neon]

George Packer:

 

Only one side has made the rhetoric of armed revolt against an oppressive tyranny the guiding spirit of its grassroots movement and its midterm campaign. Only one side routinely invokes the Second Amendment as a form of swagger and intimidation, not-so-coyly conflating rights with threats. Only one side’s activists bring guns to democratic political gatherings. Only one side has a popular national TV host who uses his platform to indoctrinate viewers in the conviction that the President is an alien, totalitarian menace to the country. Only one side fills the AM waves with rage and incendiary falsehoods. Only one side has an iconic leader, with a devoted grassroots following, who can’t stop using violent imagery and dividing her countrymen into us and them, real and fake. Any sentient American knows which side that is; to argue otherwise is disingenuous.

 

link - http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2011/01/only-one-side.html

[dark]

...and that pretty much proves the point. There's evidently one obscure left-wing nutcase out there who says a lot of stupid shit, plus a few random quotes from less obscure nutcases (you obviously liked the Montel Williams quote so much that you included it twice).

 

The rhetoric from the right is featured prominently on mainstream outlets (Fox News, etc.). One does not need to search very deeply to find it.

 

There are morons with violent fantasies on both sides, but the right has let many more of them ascend onto platforms that give them nationwide exposure.

 

Yup I screwed up and quoted Montel twice and after posting that I left it because I was lazy and I knew someone would jump on it .. predictable .. also predictable was people dismissing the quotes I posted .... Since it doesnt take much effort to find violent rhetoric on Fox news as you posted .. how about some examples? Im not talking about people talking about talking about that the Obama agenda needs to be stopped etc... I am talking violent violent rhetoric ..

 

But really no ones mind is going to be changed here ..... the Left wont see the nasty rhetoric that they use and the Right wont see it either ....but neither side had anything to to do with this tragedy ... but some on the left thought it was a good thing to attempt to make political hay and that to me says alot

[Good Old Neon]

Glen Beck:

 

BECK: “Hang on, let me just tell you what I’m thinking. I’m thinking about killing Michael Moore, and I’m wondering if I could kill him myself, or if I would need to hire somebody to do it. No, I think I could. I think he could be looking me in the eye, you know, and I could just be choking the life out — is this wrong? I stopped wearing my What Would Jesus — band — Do, and I’ve lost all sense of right and wrong now. I used to be able to say, “Yeah, I’d kill Michael Moore,” and then I’d see the little band: What Would Jesus Do? And then I’d realize, “Oh, you wouldn’t kill Michael Moore. Or at least you wouldn’t choke him to death.” And you know, well, I’m not sure.”

 

 

 

Rush Limbaugh:

 

Limbaugh: “It could well be, ladies and gentlemen, that we’re fighting the wrong enemy in the Middle East. Maybe the real terrorists that we face are on Capitol Hill. I mean, really, who’s doing as good a job to undermine what this country stands for as the terrorists? ‘Dingy’ Harry, Nancy Pelosi. I mean, look, if they call us ‘hostage takers’ and ‘gangsters,’ then why can’t we call them what they are? They are terrorists. They certainly seem suicidal. Look at what they’re doing. Look at what they did. They knew they were going to get shellacked in this election and they did it! They knew they were gonna lose. And they want to take us with them.”

 

link - http://www.juancole.com/2011/01/naw-theres-been-no-right-wing-extreme-rhetoric.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+juancole%2Fymbn+%28Informed+Comment%29

[Guest Jules]

George Packer:

 

Only one side has made the rhetoric of armed revolt against an oppressive tyranny the guiding spirit of its grassroots movement and its midterm campaign. Only one side routinely invokes the Second Amendment as a form of swagger and intimidation, not-so-coyly conflating rights with threats. Only one side’s activists bring guns to democratic political gatherings. Only one side has a popular national TV host who uses his platform to indoctrinate viewers in the conviction that the President is an alien, totalitarian menace to the country. Only one side fills the AM waves with rage and incendiary falsehoods. Only one side has an iconic leader, with a devoted grassroots following, who can’t stop using violent imagery and dividing her countrymen into us and them, real and fake. Any sentient American knows which side that is; to argue otherwise is disingenuous.

 

link - http://andrewsulliva...y-one-side.html

 

Fuck sides! What we need here is a little solidarity! Somebody's shoving a red hot poker up our asses and I wanna find out whose name is on the handle.

[Guest Speed Racer]

Yup I screwed up and quoted Montel twice and after posting that I left it because I was lazy and I knew someone would jump on it .. predictable .. also predictable was people dismissing the quotes I posted ....

 

People are dismissing the quotes since no one knows who Mike Malloy is, and 90% of your quotes are from him. Everyone knows the Fox/conservative talking heads, but who the heck is this guy?

 

Since it doesnt take much effort to find violent rhetoric on Fox news as you posted .. how about some examples?

 

This whole thread is filled with examples.

[Guest Jules]

He's a truther conspiracy dude.