tblair

Exactly. And just because they don't agree with the Church doesn't mean that the Church should change its position.

they have done before when it's suited them. And as times change, a little adaption might not be a bad thing

Yeah, but some rules never change. You wouldn't tell your kids that they can shoot up heroin when they turn 18.

But they'd be old enough to make decisions for themselves, some I might not agree with

You don't mind people having religious beliefs as long as they don't think their religion is the best, but if they are religious they must think their religion is the best? So is the flaw in Catholicism or the hypocrites?

For me it's just as basic a flaw as you can get. I don't 'mind' them thinking anything, it's just flawed, the whole concept.

This is getting pretty silly.

Why is it silly? I'm interested in the debate... we all have the usual choice..

My first post on this thread was quoting your religious extremist remark.

sorry, you're right. I got your posts confused.

 

 

Like I said. I'm quite happy being catholic. For me, yes, it is the best religion in the whole wide world. I wish everyone was catholic but I know it's not that way, and really, I'm ok with it.

 

I just don't like people bashing it when they don't know WHY the church feels the way they do about certain issues.

I'm unsure of most things in the world... people who are sure of anything bring out the distrust in me, I can't help it.

 

(I used to be indecisive as well.... but now I'm not so sure...)

I'm not saying that my religion is better than anyone else's. I'm just trying to defend it when we're being called religious extremists.

 

I'm quite happy being Catholic but that doesn't mean that it's the best choice for everyone. It's just the best choice for me.

You were trying to defend it before I made the extremist remark, and it wasn't refferring to you (I don't know you) or more moderate religious followers. I think with the example of Ron Luce, extremist isn't an exaggeration.

 

PS... by default though, you must think you're religion is the best, no?

That's the point. Why should the church change their views on something just because "everyone" thinks it's ok to do something that the church doesn't agree with. If you had a rule in your house and your kids decided not to follow it, would you then change your views on the subject to appease them?

 

Would that be acceptable?

What I'm partly saying (and it is 4.30 in the morning here, I'm on a not-very-busy-night-shift, but feeling a little fuzzy around the edges!) is that it takes all sorts. I'm quite happy with people being religious and/or having faith, but I don't go around telling these people that they're wrong. Why do people who follow a religion always think, or know even, that their way is better than anyone else's, my religion/god is better than yours etc. It's not as if you're ever going to agree on one religion, are you? So while you lot carry on your never ending lost cause, the rest of us have to put up with all the wars and anger that the futility and frustration that you inevitably experience creates ....

 

.......... THAT depresses me

This part of your response is very confusing....

I'm pretty sure that the people listening to the "religious extremists" and not using contraception aren't the same ones who get abortions.

what makes you think that? I'd guess that many are exactly those very same people

If they think condoms and birth control pills are wrong, they probably aren't huge fans of abortion either. But you are right about poor sex ed. A lot of people don't seem to realize that sex is related to reproduction. It turns out that shooting sperm towards an egg can sometimes lead to pregnancy.

It's more like the indoctrination that I worry about. Just because some people in religion say you shouldn't have sex outside of marriage, doesn't mean to say everyone has to agree with it.

I'm not at all for teaching creationsim instead of evolution, but it seems unlikely that people are poor because they aren't taught evolution.

a very odd kind of logic going on here. Nor sure where anyone suggested anything like that.

 

Yeah, the Church is definitely responsible for HIV. Nevermind the fact that they also teach no sex outside marriage.

odd again. Has anyone suggested the church or religion was responsible for HIV? ..... just that they could help to slow the spreading of it.

Since when are Catholics religious extremists? Fwiw, when you get married in a Catholic church you usually get some pretty awesome relationship education and if you pay attention, the things they teach you aren't so confusing if you open your mind a little and pay attention. It's not a bad thing.

along with rampant HIV infections, and all the misery that that entails, the catholic stance on this seems extreme to me.

Not to stick my nose in too far here, but I think the "poverty" and "education" pieces go hand-in-hand.

yep, and education. And from what I hear about how certain religious factions are influencing education, by attempting - and seemingly succeeding - to stop evolution being taught in favour of creationism, it's a very relevant point..

euphemism

ta

well, that's a whole other thread (possibly). Maybe we need to get to the bottom of why or how there are as many unwanted pregnancies in the first place before we start denying people their rights. I'd start with blaming religious extremists who won't allow contraception, followed by poor sexual/relationship education, often dictated by [confused] religious beliefs.

PS ...and poverty

Because I have a hard time believing most Americans think of abortion as a good thing.

the way America is often portrayed/percieved here in Europe (along with stories like this one, about 'God's Warriors), I tend to agree....

...and it's a little bit scary

I don't think most Christians (Catholics excluded) are opposed to birth control and other services offered by PP. If "they" are trying to get rid of anything, it's the abortions, and I don't see how that's such a horrible thing.

well, that's a whole other thread (possibly). Maybe we need to get to the bottom of why or how there are as many unwanted pregnancies in the first place before we start denying people their rights. I'd start with blaming religious extremists who won't allow contraception, followed by poor sexual/relationship education, often dictated by [confused] religious beliefs.

I don't have percentages of services offered and utilized at Planned Parenthood - but abortion is actually a minor part of their practice. I know I highly value PP as a place I can get health care without receiving a bill that will keep us from paying the rent.

 

They do offer their services on a sliding scale and for free if need be, making it one of the lone places low income women can go for decent care.

ok then... just trying to get this straight, there's 'Planned Parenthood' the organisation, and there's 'planned parenthood' the euphamism.... neither are that commonly referred to here in the uk, so I just want to clear things up...?

I just thought it was funny that abortion was included in the list of things we take for granted that "they" are trying to take away.

why's that? 'they' are

Maybe you're being brainwashed. Maybe they are really terrorists... Oh, lets think about that now.

Please do not take this post seriously.

 

But you can take this part seriously. Sarchi, there are people in this world that disagree with you. Quit being so dramatic. If you're disturbed that people follow religion, then learn to deal with it because they are not going to stop any time soon.

And yes, I am an atheist.

there are people that believe in god, follow a religion, etc, and are quite capable of letting others who choose a different path get on with their lives. These 'God's Warriors' (how provocative is that?) however are pretty much as dangerous as anything any extremists we are supposed to believe are the enemy can be. If you think that's being dramatic, then so be it, it's a fairly dramatic world at the moment.....

"We're fighting for those who don't know they have a voice, that are being manipulated by our pop culture indulging in things that, really, they're not mature enough to be thinking about yet," Luce told CNN.

 

no you're not, you want to manipulate and control the very same people you claim to be saving from the music that isn't anywhere near as harmful as people like you are

... dirty, lying, hypocrite..

I imagine the last 2 shows in Dublin could be rather good!

Money and time restrictions means I'll have to make do with the one show in Brixton. Having already seeen them a couple of times at the Shepherd's Bush Empire this year (the second night was one of the best shows I've seen by anyone), I feel rather lucky.....

when someone says they played club shows in the UK, theyre wrong. they played 2 nights in London. They are more places in the UK than London, so im hoping for more of a UK tour, Birmingham would be wonderful.

but London is in the uk. They did 2 shows (Shepherd's Bush Empire is often termed a club gig) at a club, in London, therefore they played club shows in the uk...

a return visit wouldn't go amiss though

Ciao.

They recently played a tour of clubs in Britain and Germany mostly, but also stops in the Netherlands and Belgium. Great shows all. Subscribe to wilcoworld.net for their newsletter and you'll be kept up to date on the next European tour. They make it over here every year or so and they don't just play festivals.

Not sure how reliable the newsletter is. I thought I'd subscribed to it, but wasn't given any news about the last european jaunt. Keep checking in with Wilcoworld is my advice.

Well, it's only a reader's poll and I tend to think that people firstly rank their favorite band instead of a more objective

point of view, if that ever existed, of which one truly is a great live act. (Damn, Radiohead and the RHCP are so reader's clich

sounds like these festivals might be doing some good for Wilco...

review here, and here....

Spain's a lovely country...

De Stijl was the one that got me hooked. I think Icky Thump is fantastic. It's funny, as hard as anything (makes 'heavy bands like Metallica sound like marshmallow), lyrics are great.....

It makes perfect sense not having a bass player, well not having a band really. Meg does a great job, and the way it is means that Jack can just do whatever he likes. He'll go into another song slap bang from the middle of another one.

He ain't the best guitarist in the world, but he knows what works. He gets a great sound (which is something these days), he understands how dynamics work, and live... well it's a little freaky really. I saw them at Glastonbury a couple of years ago, and he had 50,000 (could have been more) standing in a field with mud up to our ankles spellbound and having a ball. We took a neighbour of ours who hadn't a clue what the White Stripes were like, and she was kind of confused until they did 'We Are Going To Be Friends' (clip of it here).. and it all fell into place...

Saw a Jeff Beck concert a few years ago, and he did about 20 minutes of classic Yardbirds songs with The White Stripes as his band ...

We're all off to see them in November... can't wait

best band apart from The Hold Steady......

 

 

they must have been best then (Wilco, that is...)

review here

 

Again and again, Cline shreds up Tweedy's tunes with his needling, penetrative solos; in "Shot In The Arm", "Side With The Seeds", "Handshake Drugs", even in "Walken", when he waves his lap steel over his head then uses it to machine gun Kotche.....

 

wish I'd gone now...

If you didn't get the London show it has been floating around on torrent - that said the May 25th Stuttgart show is doing the rounds and is a bit better imho.

but this isn't the point though, is it? We're suposed to be able to hear the webcasts live, and for some of us, the torrents are complicated

What Light shines so brightly in live performance though, that I view it as being pretty brilliant...even if, say, it isn't one of the 5 best tracks on SBS. The studio version could've been better, I'd definitely agree.

 

In case my original post isn't clear, I'm trying to come up with some plausible "reasons" (for my own benefit) as to why some oldtime Wilco fans might think SBS is a dud. I've thought about all the obvious ones, it just doesn't quite compute. This is Wilco - a revised but very strong lineup. The songs are very good, some are downright excellent. There isn't a lot of subjectivity to the thing. dunno.....

blimey!!! that's a very negative approach to take. Why would anyone want to find, and take extra time in trying, why someone apart from yourself doesn't like an album.

I love Either Way

Yeah the tracks are on the net, but the real problem is the next exclusive webcast where you need to have the SBS enhanced CD in you're drive.

 

Most of us spent half the London show trying to work it and there hasnt been much said about it since.

If we knew the content wasnt available from the start then we'd have bought the US version on the net.

that's right I would have bought the US version, but didn't because I thought the bonus dvd might not be compatible in the UK...