jff

On 6/19/2022 at 9:10 AM, lost highway said:

 

This is astute. I love TWL but it's the variety pack model. Curious though, if you go back through you can hear the seeds of Star Wars in songs like I Might, and the approach of CC in One Sunday Morning and Black Moon.

Although I quoted you, I’m offering a take in response to you and to 5hake1tOff,

I feel like the variety pack model works best on double albums (White Album, Physical Graffiti, maybe Electric Ladyland), where the band can really stretch out and go lots of different places.  The cohesive album model, to me, works better on single albums (Rubber Soul, for example.). Maybe it’s a matter of attention span.

In my opinion, TWL might have been better if they had leaned harder into the variety pack concept and made it a double album.  And CC would be better if they had cut it down to a single.

i can’t really think of any double albums I love that I would consider cohesive in style or tone.  Even concept double-albums that are thematically cohesive like the Wall or Tommy are all over the map in musical style.

21 hours ago, lost highway said:

^ I'm curious what are some successful examples of albums that are mostly comedic. Newman's satire comes to mind but it's often as upsetting as it is funny. I get the feeling Zappa goes there but I don't mess with his stuff.

The Turtles Battle of the Bands

https://aquariumdrunkard.com/2022/06/16/jeff-tweedy-on-wilcos-cruel-country/?fbclid=IwAR359bhUOpvv5EhfTWFQR0oJMIaorzKkJElWTTVoXCWb_OqLoiOmdIoub5Y

I read this article yesterday, and it gave me an angle on the record I hadn't considered.  I don't know exactly when the CC songs were recorded or written, but we know the band was preparing for the YHF shows shortly before the CC album release.  They've had YHF on their plate for a long time.  So in the context of everything that goes into putting the YHF shows together, I can see how the band feels Cruel Country is a departure or is something new.  It IS a departure from how YHF was created and performed.  And the process of recording it as a live group is a departure from how Ode and Schmilco, according to my understanding, were recorded. Still, after many listens, it doesn't feel like anything new to me, or like a step forward in any way. 

I hope Tweedy is right and the next one really is going to blow minds.  That's what they used to do. It's what hooked me a long time ago and kept me on the line all this time. It's why they're one of a very small number of older bands whose new records I still look forward to. I think it's fair to still want my mind blown from their records, and it's not wrong to be disappointed when it isn't.  

49 minutes ago, 5hake1t0ff said:

this is true to how I feel a lot of the time too, but I think the overall point of the album is akin to a relationship with a difficult parent. It forces the choice: you can either have a relationship with the thing/person you love or not. You can’t change where you’re from, and you can’t change anyone but yourself. I think the album is saying we think we want to stay in this relationship with our country because we love it, while also knowing we may never change it to our liking.

All good points. Those themes are well worth examining in an artistic context, but perhaps they hit too close to home to be enjoyable. 

1 hour ago, 5hake1t0ff said:

 

 

There's a whole lot of lyricism on CC that I love, but not this one. And while there's a few moments of the the on-the-nose-earnestness on CC - that's been true since SBS - I don't feel like it's a trend at all. In fact, I find several songs here and on OTJ quite cryptic and poetic.

That's true.  There are earnest and not earnest lyrics on all the albums.  Somehow I'm picking up on it more with Ode/Cruel than on previous records.  It could be that the earnestness of late is more in vein of the "I'm sad because everything in this country/world is irreparably fucked up and rapidly getting worse."  I suppose I just don't want to be reminded of that when I listen to music.   

As a follow up to my earlier post in which I pledged to dig into Many Worlds... now that I've done that, my thought are somewhat mixed.   The Somewhere Over the Rainbow musical quote near the beginning (at :22) is distracting to me and sets me up to not like this song.  Then there's a vocal harmony straight out of latter era Neil Young and Crazy Horse (at 2:43) that works well and I can't help but like.

I don't really like the lyrics.  There's an on-the-nose earnestness in a lot of Tweedy's lyrics over the last two albums that I don't care for very much, particularly when partnered with such a serious sounding, contemplative backing track as on this song.  It's weird that in the wake of writing a book almost entirely about lyric writing, Tweedy is turning in some, imo, quite terrible, middle school poetry class lyrics.  That is baffling to me.  Is he playing a trick?

I do enjoy the coda.  I had seen people making a Dire Straits comparison, and I can hear that here.  I think the band were more likely actually going for a Richard Thompson slow burn, clean guitar outro jam, as that is a hallmark of Richard Thompson's career, and Wilco/Tweedy have a tight connection to him on multiple levels.  I hear some very specific Thompson-isms in the guitar playing, particularly in the string bending. (see edit)  Since I time stamped some other things in the track, I'll go back and do that for one or two examples of this.  (EDIT:  See 4:22, 5:03, 6:45...I think it's Pat playing here as you can hear Nels doing easily identifiable Nels-type stuff on the other guitar.  It's not bends as I previously stated, but what's called "double stops," where you play two notes at once.  Very reminiscent of Thompson's playing to the point of almost being a direct quote.)  (There are strong similarities between Knopfler and Thompson's guitar playing and guitar sound, so it's not wrong to draw a comparison to Dire Straits, but I still think Thompson is where they were coming from on this coda.)

So I give Many Worlds a mixed review.  I like the overall arrangement of song - - > lengthy instrumental coda, and I'm sure this one goes down really well live.

27 minutes ago, 5hake1t0ff said:

 

Yeah, fair enough. I personally love both the simple folk song structures immaculately executed by the sextet as well as the more instrumentally expressive, less vocal/lyric-centered stuff. Darkness is Cheap, like Mystery Binds, is another one where the melody played by guitar/french horn/piano, rather than the melody that's sung, takes center stage.

 

And I was thinking about your critique vis a vis a song like Many Worlds. Like, to me, Many Worlds takes a very similar, trademark Wilco, approach as another classic song: At Least That's What You Said. It starts with a soft ballad, then lets the instrumental jam that follows more fully express the true emotions of the song. Now, they do feel quite different, because Jeff and his band are in a very different place mentally/emotionally these days. But I would argue we both love the same thing about Wilco in those two songs, if that makes sense.

 

I hope I don't seem too argumentative. It's just that I also hope other Wilco fans hear some of the things I love in this album. I'm still in a state of ecstasy about it.

 

 

None of what you've said comes across as argumentative.  I like reading opinions that differ from mine.  If my posts are coming across as negative, or like I'm trying to persuade others not to like the album, that's not my intent at all. 

I guess I'm really just thinking aloud, trying to take the album apart in ways that will either lead me to enjoying it more, or will help me understand why it hasn't connected with me.  Maybe for me, a better approach to this record is taking it one song at a time rather than as a compete album.  That worked for Mystery Binds, and I will make time today to dig into Many Worlds.     

I was listening to shuffle yesterday and Mystery Binds came on.  That was quite enjoyable.  I stand by my overall critique, but I suspect if the album had been sequenced differently, and maybe was a few songs shorter, it would have been more likely to click with me.  Still could click at some point if I play around with the song order.  I've never done that with any album, but this one starts out so weak (I feel that "I Am My Mother" is an exceptionally dull album opener, for example) that it might be necessary.

1 hour ago, 5hake1t0ff said:

 

Really interesting post. Are you referencing a change you perceive in the mix of Wilco albums of late/this album in particular? Or, are you referencing a change to how the songs are written/arranged?

Arranged, I suppose, though it probably has something to do with the mixes as well.  The songs used to be arranged in such a way that significant portions of a song would be set aside for the instrumental track to develop and build, or go near silent, or take off in a surprising new direction.  For example, Muzzle of Bees, You Are My Face, Hell is Chrome.  IMO, one of the more creative things Wilco does is finds unexpected places and ways for the instruments to do the talking (and I don't mean guitar solos).   I feel that if this is still something they do, they've gotten too subtle with it and are over-relying on the lyrical direction of the song.

TL;DR:  The lyrics didn't used to tell the whole story.  Now they do, and that's less interesting to me.

On 6/6/2022 at 3:44 PM, 5hake1t0ff said:

 What I have a very hard time accepting are those who say it's a continuation of Jeff's solo work. There are just so many sonic flourishes and carefully crafted bits that, to me, distinguish Wilco's work from all others, including Jeff's solo albums.

 

I've never listened to a Jeff Tweedy solo album, so I don't know exactly what the comparison means.  But I think people might be making that comparison because Jeff's singing is SO at the forefront all the way through this record.  There are sonic flourishes, etc. from the band, but for the most part, they don't bubble their way to the surface and take the lead like they have throughout most of Wilco's discography.  You have to listen intently, multiple times, with headphones, before they reveal themselves.   One could say that's a reward for active listening.  But I suspect many would prefer if everyone, including Tweedy's vocal, had to chance to sit in the front and back seats from time to time, allowing everyone in the band to make prominent musical statements.  Some segment of the fanbase prefers more of an ensemble approach than a leader/backing band approach, which is what this record is.

Talk to me

I don't want to hear poetry

Say it plan

Like how you really speak

I can't say what my favorite lyrics are on this one, but this lyric strikes me as interesting, and as sort of a manifesto for Tweedy's current approach.  It encapsulates what is missing, and what I most want to hear from the band. To me, the parts of a song where an instrument other than the voice is telling the story, saying things you can't say with words, is where the poetry in music is most evident.  Tweedy seems to be acknowledging that, for now, he's going to tell us stories in plain language.  Not to say that there's a complete lack of oblique wordplay on the record.  There's a little.  But in general, his writing is very straightforward now, and there's he sees no need for the instruments to step in and try to express the un-verbalize-able parts of the story.

I miss the un-verbalize-able parts.   That kind of stuff speaks to me more than any lyric ever written.  I doubt Tweedy meant that line as a vision statement for 2022 Wilco, but I feel that it works as one, and even if I never end up liking this album very much, there is some degree of comfort in hearing Tweedy come right out and say it.

1 hour ago, brownie said:

I find it odd that there would be such heated discussion regarding masterpiece/non-masterpiece for an album that was released just four days ago.  I have only been able to listen to the album a few times because I did not have early access, and it was a busy holiday weekend.

 

What seems to be happening with me is that the album is slowly revealing itself to me over time.  There is no way I can have any opinion at all about it yet, let alone decide if it’s a masterpiece or not!

This bold portion is something the FB page has made me think about.  On one hand, there are the people raving about it, feeling their opinion is more valid than those who don't care for it.  On the other, some people aren't into it for a variety of stated and unstated reasons. It's equally new to all of us, so I don't know why the fans would think their opinion is the correct one and the naysayers will come around to it in time.  Isn't it equally possible the naysayers are correct and the fans will come around to THAT opinion in time?  Neither camp has a rightful claim at this early point to a fair or correct view of how well the album will hold up over time.  Both sides have the exact same evidence to work with.

I don't say that to argue either side.  I hope and suspect it will hold up as a good one in the opinions of most fans.  I just see an interesting philosophical debate that is being treated more like a petty squabble that's getting out of hand. 

1 hour ago, chisoxjtrain said:

 

I like the album, and I respect people's opinions that they don't like the album.

 

To jff's post, I really think the invention of social media has made people feel like their opinion is extremely important when in fact it really isn't. I would care for my friends' opinions, but I don't give a shit what a random person thinks about something I didn't make or I am not involved in.

 

Yes, this is an unpleasant and societally damaging phenomenon.  I'm sure I've been guilty of falling into that trap at times. 

Hoo boy, that FB group is a doozy.  There seems to be some PTSD response going on there over the fact that there isn't 100% agreement that CC is a masterpiece.  Lots of words being put in the mouths of the people who aren't won over by the record.   There's constantly someone starting a new post lambasting the underwhelmed, refusing to let it go, and then acting as if it's the underwhelmed who won't shut up about it.  Basically calling people ignorant and other insults....trespassers, meathead rockers, "You think Wilco is unworthy of you", "You think Wilco OWES you something."  I have not seen that kind of behavior from the underwhelmed directed towards those who love the album. 

Very bizarre and thin skinned.  Like a cult.  It's gross.  When this group was highly active some years back, I don't recall it ever getting like that (not that we didn't have disagreements or arguments)...which is weird because web forums are more anonymous than FB, so you'd think it'd be easier to devolve into flame wars here than there.  But what do I know?  

I haven't been won over by the album yet.  I certainly may be at some point, and I hope I will be.  My general feeling is that Wilco has been operating in a much narrower range since Schmilco than what I prefer.  But, setting my personal opinion aside, I can still hear the quality of what they are doing within that narrow range.  There's tons of interesting playing from all members of the band.  But I feel that it requires more deep focused headphone listening to uncover it than it used to. And my tinnitus is easily set off by headphones, so I much prefer listening on home stereo or car speakers. So it's gotten somewhat difficult to fully enjoy their records. 

Thank you for indulging my little rant.  I always enjoy reading everyone's responses when a new album comes out, and I think I have found something to agree with in each review, whether it be pro or con.

But I will never, ever agree that "I went through hell on the way to hell" is a good lyric.  That line is a total stinker, especially from a guy who wrote a book about lyric writing.  THAT is my one hardened and immovable opinion about the record.  If you love that line, then OK, I think that is just fine.

The ability to form feelings from a written description of something you haven’t directly experienced is an admirable trait.  It’s why humans are able to enjoy fiction books.

There’s nothing wrong with reading a review and expecting, based on what that review says, that you won’t like the thing being reviewed.  That’s precisely what a review is for.

10 minutes ago, Boss_Tweedy said:

 

Putting the pieces together from the reviews I've read, I can tell this is gonna be another disappointing offering for me. I had high hopes based on the first song released and the description of the album as a "country" album, but I fear this will be another one I probably won't think about in a few months (along with Star Wars, Schmilco, and Ode to Joy). That saddens me.

Unfortunately, this is my impression based on media reviews and the few people who have been brave enough on the fan pages to speak in less than raving terms.  All the descriptions indicate it will be, to my taste, another pretty bland record.  That’ll make three in a row.

I very much want to be proven wrong and will give it an honest chance to win me over.

Are some of you saying there are no longer hit songs?
 

If so, what was Old Town Road?  
 

Wilco is very unlikely to approach that.

Let’s hope it never happens.  It’d make the concert experience awful, and probably hurt Wilco in the long run.  It’s very difficult for a band to go from huge success back to the stable, moderate success Wilco enjoys.

Guitar music is not permanently over any more than vinyl records were permanently over in the late ‘90s.

For Wilco to have a big hit, it’d probably need to be a song that’s used prominently a massively huge move.

Check your emails.  Supposedly SS ticket holders were just given access to the new album.

16 hours ago, DiamondClaw said:

Just heard the new one, and I have the opposite reaction! I liked "Falling Apart" OK, but "Tired of Taking it Out on You" is just exquisite.

That seems to be the prevailing opinion.  I can’t pinpoint what it is about Tired… that isn’t doing it for me.  It’s a well made piece of music, and there’s nothing  bad about it. It’s just missing an intangible something that I’ve gotten from most of Wilco’s music in the past.  
 

Falling Apart…not the greatest song ever, but it’s pretty good and it came with an element of surprise, which is one of the definable things that I’ve (almost) always enjoyed about the band’s records.

15 hours ago, lost highway said:

I had a new thought relistening to Falling Apart today in light of the "live studio takes" details in the press release.

 

I suspect the baritone guitar solo is Nels and the later phaser tele solo is Pat. I might be wrong, but if it is would that be the first proper guitar solo by Pat on a Wilco record?

It’d be interesting to know, and I hope the liner notes will include these details.  Baritone as an instrument is probably more associated with Nels than Pat.  But baritone as part of the musical vocabulary of country music is a lot closer to Pat’s musical roots than Nels’.  Could go either way.

47 minutes ago, Boss_Tweedy said:

“Wilco by the numbers" like their recent albums that I'll soon forget and never return to

That’s a good way to reword what I mean by “new Wilco.”  Jeff with backing band, rather than an ensemble where everyone’s contribution rises to a higher level than just support for the lead vocal.  

I feel like every Wilco album has songs that make the list of all time great Wilco songs. But nothing on Schmilco or Ode rises to that level for me, no matter how many listens I give them.  
 

I hope the new record breaks that pattern.

Not crazy about this new one.  Might be incredible in context of the album, but on its own it strikes me as a pretty generic “new Wilco” song.  As a teaser track, it doesn’t have me rushing to the cash register.
 

I did like Faliing Apart quite a bit.  Haven’t heard the other songs yet, but I’d be happier if Falling Apart, and not this song, is more representative of the new album.

47 minutes ago, lost highway said:

So who thinks this will actually be a largely country record? In some ways this single is a more faithful channeling of the Bakersfield sound than anything from the "alt country" days of AM.

 

Also, I'm playing the game of what is everyone who isn't the rhythm section doing?

 

Nels- kaleidiscopic phaser country lead kicking ass all over the place

Jeff- foundational acoustic strumming

Pat- spanky, plucky telecaster part

Mikael- ???? Not a lot of organ, or piano on there. I might be picking up on some subtle keyboards.

 

Also, I'm guessing John and Glenn are doing what they often do: making me thing they're being super minimalist and understated to just serve the song, but on the 10th listen I'll realize there is more than meets the eye in their parts.

I’m in the camp that hopes it is not largely a country record.  I love this type of country. This is a straight-up throw back to Buck Owens and others and is not “alt” in any sense.   But 21 songs is a lot of space to devote to one type of sound.  I’d love for this one to be all over the map.  
 

Already we have one song with some real tempo to it, unlike any of the molasses on Ode (not counting Everyone Hides.)

Regarding instrumentation, on first impression, I’m pretty sure it’s Nels on the baritone (low pitched) guitar.  Nels is a huge Danelectro/Jerry Jones enthusiast, and baritone guitars have long been a mainstay of their product line.   It’s probably Pat playing a B-Bender guitar (the stuff that sounds like pedal steel.). On second impression, there’s definitely some piano in there, but it’s really subtle in the mix.   I didn’t even notice it until the final note of the song, where you can hear a piano  note ringing along with the guitars.