Doug C

It's funny. That's probably the 6th Irving I've read and the first I didn't really like.

 

Maybe if it was my first taste of his work I'd like it more.

That is interesting. My first Irving was The World According to Garp, but that was when I was young and I read it after I saw the movie version.. I didn't read Irving again until A Prayer For Owen Meany came out. A friend had read it and raved, so I read it. I've been hooked on John Irving ever since. I've never enjoyed a book more. I've definitely enjoyed many books before and after, but there was something about Owen...

A Prayer for Owen Meany, no question. I was pleasantly surprised to see it already mentioned.

Donna, I am trying to PM you, but it says that you can't receive new messages. It would be inappropriate to post it in the thread so please PM me your email, or allow yourself to receive new messages. It was over 5 hours without either one of us replying. It was already over.

 

Thank you, Doug

Accuracy was exactly my reason for choosing dialect. She said "stank," not "stinks." My ex spoke English as a 2nd language, so of course she was confused by the misuse of the word "stank" when it should have been "stinks." If I'd wanted to overstate the point, I would have used "dat" instead of "that."

 

I lied. But in my defense, I wasn't anticipating the above and I'm not private messaging. I will try very hard to resist whatever future tempting slow-pitched softball you lob my way.

 

Mr. Heartbreak, on 30 Sept 2016 - 12:46 PM, said: "I made use of dialect for a specific purpose: I'm a pro writer and I wanted to make the post as easy to read as quickly as possible." No mention of accuracy, sir. If it was exactly your reason, why leave it unmentioned and mention 2 things that were not exactly your reason? Again, think about these things, it could be worthwhile.

 

Also, " I am not trying to offend. I am trying to get you to reflect, knowing that doing so would likely offend." jibes with my stated goal of to never hurt anyone's feelings, if I can avoid it, because this is a situation where to reach my desire to get you to reflect, I had to risk offending you. Obviously a simple means to greater end decision. Does that really warrant a    ? If so, then I hold my hands up and admit I look the fool.

We should do a VC poll on which is easier and quicker to read. I'd wager it would be close to 50-50. Accuracy wasn't one of your original reasons for choosing dialect.

 

I am not trying to offend. I am trying to get you to reflect, knowing that doing so would likely offend. I doubted I'd have any success, but felt I needed to give it a shot.

 

I put "pro writer" in quotes because I didn't see how it was relevant to saying "stank", instead of "stinks". Writing skill has nothing to do with choosing to make sure we knew it was a black person speaking in dialect. Why? So we'd understand her intelligence was in question? Ever hear of "code switching"? I hear students engaging in it daily.

 

Feel free to "take the bait". I won't be offended.

 

 As disrespectful as I may seem to you, that wasn't my intent.

 

I have no need to address our specific discussion further, no matter what comes next on my screen.

 

Good day.

I made use of dialect for a specific purpose: I'm a pro writer and I wanted to make the post as easy to read as quickly as possible. And, as Frank Zappa once noted, there are plenty of ethnic groups who have certain characteristics, and those characteristics are generally made fun of by other ethnic groups. It was an illustration - a single anecdote - of a person who is black and had little racial sensitivity toward Asian people. That was about my ex, who was Asian, and I could tell many, many similar stories of my current wife (also Asian, though a different nationality) and the poor treatment she has received from African-American clients.

 

The fact is, there is racism among all people: there are black people who are racist toward white people, which you have surely noticed in your work, and there are people in Mexico who are bigoted toward Guatemalan people, there are Indian people who hate the Chinese, and on and on. Racism is hardly limited to white folks. It's pervasive across cultures throughout the world.

 

As for my Latino/Hispanic comment, I was trying to convey that there are issues there, too. Again, not at all a homogenous group!

 

Your goal of never wanting to hurt anyone's feelings, while admirable, is a pretty tough road to hoe. Good luck with it! I don't purposefully set out to hurt someone's feelings, but I don't want to live in a world where I have to be hyper vigilant about everything I say or do. I could never write fiction and live that way.

 

Oh, and asking if I was at a Trump rally...that actually is the closest anyone has ever been to calling me a racist. Lol Man, would I be uncomfortable at a Trump event...

 

 

"Damn, girl, that food stank!"

"It's good," says the ex. "It's Filipino."

"I like Chinese food, but that don't smell like no Chinese food I ever had."

"It's not Chinese, it's Filipino," repeats the ex.

"Girl, it's all Chinese food to me!"

 

"Damn, girl, that food stinks". "It's good," says the ex. I don't like Chinese food, but that doesn't smell like any Chinese food I ever had." "It's not Chinese, it's Filipino," repeats the ex. "Girl, it's all Chinese food to me!"

 

I'm not a "pro writer" but which was easier to read and quickly as possible? Discounting the vertical vs. horizontal organization, of course.

 

I honestly have not noticed racism toward me from non-white students. I'm certain some of them have biases re whites, but nothing overt. Also, I like to think that my students and I all grow as people due to being exposed to one another.

 

I don't look to Frank Zappa and his anecdotal evidence when deciding how to relate to others.

 

I'm not hyper-vigilant. It's easy to not offend, if you don't want to offend.

 

If "Leroy" wasn't his name, and/or you couldn't remember it, why choose Leroy?

 

Respectfully, it could be a worthwhile exercise thinking about those previously mentioned things. If having difficulty seeing it differently, research 'confirmation bias'.

When I tell the anecdote orally, I only try to do the black dialect. My Filipino accent is terrible.

 

I think you may have willfully misunderstood my point, which was that even a far left liberal like me can see why so many folks are tired of falling all over themselves to avoid offending anyone. We have become a nation of namby pamby wimps.

 

As for your question about a Trump rally...I don't even know where to start with that one. I guess you think that if two white men have a conversation about race that's NOT a Black Lives Matter commercial, we must be right-wingers?

 

You don't have any idea who you're addressing here, but that was a really funny question.

 

So to reassure you of my pinko bona fides, I am a registered Dem who voted for Bernie in the primary. But I'm also not blind or deaf. Can you really not see how a white person less sensitive and empathetic than yourself might be upset that, if they are not downright apologetic for being white, they get labeled as racist? Why is it such a minefield? Every time I turn on the computer or TV I see people talking about this stuff.

Sigh.

 

I easily took your point about "and I can see why older, not-that-sensitive people are just like, "Oh, fuck all this. Just call a spade a spade." ". I, too, "can see why so many folks are tired of falling all over themselves to avoid offending anyone.". It's because they don't truly care if they offend anyone. Times change, meaning societal norms and mores change. If someone is unwilling to change, fine, but they can't get upset if others react accordingly. 

 

The thing is, you made other points. Those were the ones that I was addressing.

 

If you truly tell that "food" story and use dialect, thinking about how that sounds to many people and whether or not you want to be thought of as someone that speaks in that manner could be a worthwhile exercise. What is the reason for using dialect other than to make sure the ethnicity/culture of the person is clearly conveyed? No need to even say "black". Just say some thick arse insulted my ex's Filipino food and the dumb ass called it Chinese.

 

If you actually laughed at ""Ya'll used to be called Negroes, then it was Afro-American, then African-American, then black, then back to African-American. I wish y'all would pick one and just stick with it!", thinking about why you found it funny and whether or not you want to thought of as someone finding it hilarious could also be a worthwhile exercise..

 

You said, "...Spanish people, er, Hispanics, er, Latinos,", but also said this (as a criticism of the food critic), "Basically, all Asian people are Chinese, I guess.".Reflect on that and draw your own conclusions.

 

You addressed some of my comments, but not all. I respectfully ask again, was the gentleman's name actually "Leroy"? If your ex had told you the same story but it was a Latina, would you relay the anecdote using dialect? Any response to this: " "Girl, it's all Chinese food to me!" But it is all Chinese food to her. She is displaying her own ignorance and lack of intellectual curiosity. It has absolutely nothing to do with the color of her skin."

 

"You don't have any idea who you're addressing here," Well!

 

I have no interest in your "pinko bona fides". Though you didn't explicitly say it, I think that you may believe that I implied you are racist. I do not think that you are. I think that you are human. Therefore, your mind, like mine, is constantly looking for patterns, because nature is all about patterns, so that we can organize and understand the world. It's just that ethnic/cultural/racial group members don't fit easy patterns, meaning we often make errors. It is our duty, as people wanting others to feel comfortable and to be treated with respect, to do our best to recognize fallacious patterns and the inaccurate beliefs based on them. 

 

I'm no saint. I live in a majority black neighborhood and have taught at a minority white school (about 50% black, about 30% Latino/Latina, next Asians of various cultures/ethnic groups, then whites) most of my 31 years. I sometimes catch myself stereotyping, as I try to be on guard for it. When I do, I find time to reflect on it and realize that's it's that particular individual(s) due to their specific life experience behaving that way, it isn't indicative of their "group". One of my life goals in general, and teaching goals, specifically, is to never hurt anyone's feelings, if I can avoid it. Understanding what might possibly be offensive to someone is critical to fulfilling this goal. Am I perfect at it? Of course not, I still on occasion in weak moments, hurt others feelings. Fortunately, only family or friends, rarely strangers or students. It doesn't matter whether or not we find something offensive, what matters is that we understand that others could be offended, so we avoid those words and deeds. It's a fluid process and I'm doing my best. I hope that we all are.

 

Thank you for reading. Wilco!

"Leroy"? Was his name really Leroy? When you orally tell the Filipino food anecdote, do you speak in dialect or do you only use that when you write the anecdote?

So this one co-worker of your ex represents the black population? I'd be willing to bet that a boorish white co-worker could have found the food's odor unpleasant and also could have offensively told your ex that, rather than showing respect by keeping her mouth shut. A boorish Latina, too. I wonder if you'd relay that story this way, "Daaeem, chica. Daht food steeenk".

 

"Girl, it's all Chinese food to me!" But it is all Chinese food to her. She is displaying her own ignorance and lack of intellectual curiosity. It has absolutely nothing to do with the color of her skin.

 

 "Ya'll used to be called Negroes, then it was Afro-American, then African-American, then black, then back to African-American. I wish y'all would pick one and just stick with it!"   Yeah, that's a hilarious exchange. Was this 'networking event' a Trump rally?

 

I could not care less that females say "mansplaining". It doesn't make me wistful for the days of "telephone, telegraph and tell-a-woman". I don't want to talk about women, or any group, in a stereotypical way. When I catch myself speaking or thinking in a biased way, I take time to self-reflect and figure out what's going on in my head.

Wow.

For all the idiocy and incompetence Trump displayed last night, I couldn't escape the feeling that he was "winning" with lots of groups of Americans, simply by beating up on someone from the "establishment." The veracity of the claims is irrelevant. People just want to see and support the abuse.

Spot on. When I walked into Adult School tonight, I overheard the resource officer saying to a teacher "She just disgusts me". I immediately knew that they were talking about the debate. She disgusts you but he doesn't? Earlier today, in day school, the NJROTC commander was telling me how Trump won the debate "big time". 

 

Whether Trump wins or loses, the divide between the thinkers living in the reality of facts and the reactors living in the fantasy of information is so stark, that, as Charlie Brown so eloquently stated, "We're doomed".

I missed another gem in that blog post. "Her failed policies, deals, plans, scams, lies, cheating, allowing our soldiers and citizens to die in Benghazi, her hateful, distasteful rhetoric calling someone a racist, homophobic, Zenophobic and much, much more;" 

 

I'd bet that Trump is Zenophobic. I'd wager from his reaction to being questioned last night that he'd be no fan of the dialectic, but on the other hand, the Lying Hillary hate/Lying Donald love is a paradox.

 

edit: It's possible that the blogger wasn't referring to Zeno of Elea, but Zeno of Citium. If so, Zenophobic still applies, as I can't imagine Trump abiding pain and disappointment without comment or negative reaction.

Look, I know the commenter is an easy target, and doesn't come off as too intelligent, but what scares me is that there's an army of them that agree with the commenter

Oh hell yes, I agree. As I said a few posts previous, it's a sad comment on the state of the nation.

Re the above: "She has lied since the Watergate incident". Damn. First she was fighting ISIS 40 years or more before it existed and now she was one of the Plumbers. She is amazing!

I agree with John Smith. Trump was clearly and utterly out of his depth, but that is meaningless to his supporters. In truth, the fact that he has the backing of maybe 40% or more of the citizenry is a sad comment on the state of the nation.

 

I'm hoping that the debate will cause other prominent Republicans to follow George H. W. Bush's lead and say that they are voting for Hillary Clinton.

 

How is that possible, considering Obama invented Isis?  Clinton has only been an adult for eight years?

 

 

Indeed,  unless she's the aforementioned Minority Report style pre-cog bad ass!

 

 

 

Also, Trump has to be out of his head. Nothing else explains this: http://www.npr.org/2016/09/27/495611105/in-post-debate-interview-trump-again-criticizes-pageant-winners-weight

Will his health be a major campaign issue now?

If he'd have been more animated, I'd have thought he was coked up.

Having both Politifact and NPR live fact checking open while watching is an added bonus. Highly recommended.

Hillary has been fighting Isis her entire adult life. Wow! She's some kind of precog bad ass!

I'm still trying to figure out how this is someone's actual name.

I teach high school and have this same thought most everyday. I could tell you about some truly bizarre names.

Did you actually read my post? Or are you just jumping off on what you think I said. Please, re-read my post and read your ignorant statement and tell me if what you said makes any sense.

 

This is why we can't have nice things.

Kevin, I have nothing better to do at the moment and I am embarrassed to say that doing this will bring me a small amount of pleasure, so allow me.

 

Doctor B, Kevin G said, "Of course this will do nothing to sway any voter and will more than likely piss off the other side even more".

 

He said absolutely nothing that should have caused Doctor B to reply  "Kevin G you are nuts if you think a video made by Hollywood progressives is going to make undecideds go "Gee, I think I will vote for Hillary".

 

If I may paraphrase This Old House, "read twice, reply once".

Self worship implies theism, no?

Touche', sir.

It's definitely rigged if Donald has to participate in a debate while he's also under "concentrated Satanic attack."

 

Wow, even Satan is against Donald? That's saying something. 

Wow! Thanks for that. It had to have taken all of Trump's concentration to stay composed and not laugh his ass off during that nonsense. About the only positive thing I can say about the guy is that he's most likely an atheist.

No registered voter who opts to vote has to vote for either, actually.

 

No shit. But if you are eligible to vote and truly don't want to live in a world where Trump is president, then the only things you can do to have an effect on avoiding that reality, is kill Trump, kill yourself, as Don (?) pointed out, or vote for Clinton

The next president of the USA will either be Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump, therefore it comes down to a single question that all eligible voters must ask themselves. "Do I want to live in a world where Donald Trump is the President of the United States?". If the answer is, "yes", then vote for Trump. But if the answer is "no", then there is no alternative. You must vote for Clinton.

Few, if any, are overpaid. Whoever is paying them believes that gaining that individual's employ will increase the payer's profit. The "huge" salary or wage is simply a necessary production cost of having that employee as a resource.

why does anyone care what a second string QB from a middling team does?  

 

As with the socks, it is not like Kapernick wore them to a press conference, or on the field during a game (it was practice).  He did not mention them.  The media is who made the socks a big deal not him.  

In the past, the NFL has fined players for training ground behavior and dress. 

 

The most revelatory part of it for me is how many white people I know who are living comfortably and didn't even want to think sincerely for one instant what he was trying to communicate. I feel like I've become an unlikely spokesperson for understanding white privilege. I really think it starts with getting folks off of the defensive. White people, like all people are shitty listeners when they feel attacked. It turns out they feel attacked when the football guy doesn't stand for the song about their country.

I don't feel attacked by Kaepernick or any protests regarding institutional racism in law enforcement, I want it to end. I just disagree with calling law enforcement officers "pigs". Police officers are brutal racists is equal to blacks are violent criminals in it's bias and ignorance. That Kaepernick doesn't see the irony is laughable.