Good Old Neon

Oh swell

haven't you had enough of this subject by now? isn't there anything else in your life? I happen to know there is... some of you should be working instead of posting. you wouldn't want to lose your job now would you.... especially with a wife and baby at home...

ummmmm....Jess?

The thing you have to understand about message boards/web communites/fanbases is that it really doesn't matter how old you are or when you became a fan. All fanbases have 'sacred texts' of which most of the members are familiar. Seniority counts for something, but it goes both ways - you might have been a fan longer, but you're new here. A lot of the abrasiveness stems not from posters' lack of familiarity with articles you're mentioning, but with the fact that because you have been a fan since way back you assume they don't know what you're talking about when you mention things that most everyone here knows.

 

That's not your fault at all, I'm just letting you know that's what's up with poor reactions to posts like that.

 

Just out of curiosity, are your principles exactly the same as they were in 1991? I know mine aren't, and that's not a bad thing.

I understand and apologize for my abrasiveness

Then in this, the internet age, you should be able to find actual examples that support your position.

The articles were written long before everything became immediately available via the internet

Now you're scrambling. You've been caught trying to misapply Jeff's comments to a situation he wasn't even discussing when he made them, and you're desperately trying to make a connection.

 

It's not working. Go find some Tweedy comments that specifically address the issue of music appearing in commercials, and maybe I'll re-engage you on this subject. Until you can do that, you're just wasting my time.

 

In the event you actually find such comments, don't think I won't go check them out. You better make sure that they really came from Tweedy, and that they actually address the specific subject of music appearing in commercials.

 

But really, don't waste your time.

That's called spin, kid. You're definitely the one spinning now. "I think his idea speaks to a larger issue as well"? Give me a break. You can't find the quotes you want, so you're applying spit and bubble gum to these ones. Weak.

I

WHO USES A FUCKING LOAF OF BREAD TO SELL A VEHICLE?

Are you always so literal?

Personally, I think the quotes are very relevant to our discussion

I did read the article. The article is about file-sharing, not about music appearing in commercials. Ergo, those comments are not addressing music appearing in commercials, they're addressing file-sharing. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

The most recent example of him talking about file-sharing, not music in commercials. THESE TWO THINGS ARE DIFFERENT. Your attempt to use these quotations to buttress your argument against music appearing in commercials is intellectually dishonest. If you're going to use quotations, at least find some that are actually relevant to your argument. What you're doing only undermines your own argument, and makes you look ridiculous.

So, I guess we can assume Jeff would say

It is a good discussion to have, and he's clearly not a troll - he's simply not making the best impression by only posting in his own thread and brushing off everyone who doesn't agree with a 'you're not responding to my questions' shtick. Because that's what trolls do. Again, he's not one, but he's assuming the position at this point and it's harder to become a member of a community when you don't try to integrate - yeah?

 

I agree that a lot of people have every right to be uncomfortable with the VW thing. Other people aren't. They aren't betraying their principles because they don't feel Wilco has 'sold out,' they simply have different principles. And Wilco probably had very little to do with the Holocaust.

That's how people discuss things, generally - talking about a topic by mentioning it...

My point, is if you do not like the discussion, why continue to perpetuate it by posting in it?

Simply ignore it.

You're the one spinning here. You're taking comments that weren't addressing this situation and trying to apply them to this situation. You can interpret them any way you like, but unless you know exactly what Jeff was referring to, it's just your guess, now, isn't it? In other words, your spin.

Jeff has been saying similar things for years, going back to the early nineties

You're the one spinning here. You're taking comments that weren't addressing this situation and trying to apply them to this situation. You can interpret them any way you like, but unless you know exactly what Jeff was referring to, it's just your guess, now, isn't it? In other words, your spin.

Go read the article - it's pretty cut and dry. Those were answer to specific questions.

I would agree with you about that IF starting this thread hadn't been his first act on this board, and if he'd merely added a comment to the thread about the VW commercial that already existed, rather than starting this one. As it is, this thread stands as a monument to jnickerson's need for attention.

You

Well crap on a stick. Read through these 27 pages and find that I HAVE responded to your first post. Everyone has. Not everyone agrees with you, but some folks do. Awesome. People are calling you a troll because you either can't get over yourself or can't get over your cause.

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Oh. My. God. "Weak defense"? He only pointed out that none of the quotes you listed actually addresses the point that you're trying to make. NONE OF THEM. So which defense is "weak," here, exactly?

I think

jnickerson, you've given this thread enough juice, and stated your opinion 69 times. Do you need everyone to agree with you before you let it go?

 

At the bottom right hand of the page, there are Moderation Controls. Please lock this thread and put it out of its misery.

Beltmann posed a question, I answered it.

Are you being forced into re-visiting this thread?

Seriously, post outside your one and only thread. It might put some hair on your chest or something.

I fully intend to, as stated earlier, I'm having a hard enough time keeping up with this one.

Is that the only response you could muster?

Don

all of those quotes relate to how Jeff wants his music to be sold, which I think is different to how it might be used to sell something else. His music, the cd's, the shows, are still the same as they were...

With all do respect, that is a rather weak defense. Jeff is an artist, not a car salesman.

There are many many more interviews out there similar to this one, many of them available only in print form, going back to the early nineties – Forced Exposure – Alternative Press – Magnet Magazine – many of them make reference to Jeff’s disgust with the commercial state of music. I will dig them out of the attic when time permits.

I did not come to this conclusion overnight, based only on my own personal feelings – Jeff has stated as much or more in the past.

Speaking of unanswered questions, I posed quite a few yesterday that you failed to engage with, including this one:

 

But how, exactly, has Wilco betrayed their principles? If their principles include a belief in the power of art, they have released a record that reflects their artistic ambitions. If their principles include a belief that their art should be shared with as many listeners as possible, they have utilized manifold marketing tactics that will help make that happen. I don't think those two beliefs are mutually exclusive. And perhaps the band feels that advertising is, on some level, a kind of art; that may be an unpopular view, but it's certainly a valid position to take. Again, how exactly has Wilco compromised their ideals?

 

(If the band's stated principles included contempt for capitalism, then you might have a point.)

 

No offense, but it sounds to me like you're peeved not because Wilco violated their principles, but because they violated your principles. What gets me about your tone, and TheMaker's tone, is the flawed assumption that your way of defining ethics is the only possible way to think about the issue.

'Music Is Not a Loaf of Bread' - Jeff Tweedy - Wired Magazine.

"Stop trying to treat music like it's a tennis shoe, something to be branded. If the music industry wants to save money, they should take a look at some of their six-figure executive expense accounts. All those lawsuits can't be cheap, either." - Jeff Tweedy - Wired Magazine

"Anyone who chooses to listen to our music becomes a collaborator.

People who look at music as commerce don't understand that. They are talking about pieces of plastic they want to sell, packages of intellectual property.

I'm not interested in selling pieces of plastic." - Jeff Tweedy - Wired Magazine

WN: Your critics might say that it's easy for you to say that, given that you're already a commercial success.

Tweedy: I'm grateful that I've sold enough to have a house, take care of my kids and live decently. But that's a gift, not an entitlement. - Jeff Tweedy - Wired Magazine

Well, look, my point is that everybody who's been engaging in this debate over multiple pages has been reduced to trotting out some really ridiculous statements at this point. Seriously, in the context of this conversation, who gives an honest shit about whose mom paid for his Bonnaroo vacation, or whose farmer family needs to consume X thousand litres of gas a year in order to get by? When a dude tells me that the very principle to which we're objecting doesn't exist, you know the debate is over and it's time to move the fuck on. I won't be checking back in on this thread, at any rate.

Point taken.

You don't even know the half of it. I actually looked up his phone number and called his whole family assholes and said they have an ugly dog.

 

But seriously, give me some of these unanswered questions, I'd like to make up for being rude. As an extremely well respected member of the community, I'd like to take the first opportunity to reach out and respond to your percieved greivances.

 

I mean, seriously this whole thread is a joke, man. Look at it this way, would you rather Jeff make money this way (i.r. extremely easily, so that he can focus on records and tours) or by pulling down a steady income doing a "real" job. It's not like Jeff is living in the Hamptons or Beverly Hills. He lives in a suburb of Chicago and drives a mini-van. He's busted his ass for 20 years in the music industry, and it's only fair that now he can get his fair share. If it's not him in the VW commercial, it's Ryan Adams, or James Blunt (not comparing the 2), or someone else. So, if you are a fan of his music, why wouldn't you be happy he's finally reached the place with his art that he doesn't have to kill himself to live?

In case you missed it the first time:

Here

Cheers to this.

 

Stick around, man. If there's one thing I've noticed over the years, it's that this place is an absolute fucking neo-yuppie haven, but there are some good folks and good conversations to be found hereabouts. You're nothing remotely close to an internet troll in my book.

 

That said, holy crap, you know the internet discussion is past over when people are asking other people to empirically prove that all Humvee drivers are assholes. Let's we all take a step back, examine that request and laugh, okay?

Aw shucks - thanks maker

Cheers to this.

 

 

 

That said, holy crap, you know the internet discussion is past over when people are asking other people to empirically prove that all Humvee drivers are assholes. Let's we all take a step back, examine that request and laugh, okay?

That was in a response to some claims Earl made several hours ago.

He has the world and all of its inhabitants all figured out.

Actually, please list the questions you feel have gone unanswered and I'll knock them out.

Here

Dude, there have been 250 replies to your first post . You can't honestly believe nobody's answered any of your questions.

 

Actually, please list the questions you feel have gone unanswered and I'll knock them out.

 

And you are a troll. How many posts do you have outside of your own thread?

I just signed up yesterday

You're the prototypical troll. If you honestly believe you're not a troll, you've got much more serious issues than the compulsive high-horse pontification you've displayed here.

Why am I a troll

You came to the board and started a thread criticizing the band which the forum is based around. You have made no attempt to post anywhere but in your own thread, and you are now asking stupid questions (not really a trolling thing, as I admit I do it too, but it's a bit for me). Thats pretty much trolling.

 

To answer your questions, yes I drive a car and yes, it uses gasoline. If I lived somewhere where I didn't need to use the car (i.e. not the suburbs) I wouldn't. When I'm at school, I rarely use my car, since I can walk everywhere.

 

I am not flying to Bonnaroo, I am driving. Which is a lot of gasoline being used. It would be alot more if I wasn't driving a compact car.

Although I would change the way I

Jesus christ, you are one annoying troll, huh.

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