Wallace v. Clinton

[EL the Famous]

Sadly, we are all lumped together as "Americans", just as we lump people together ("Iraquis", "French" etc).

 

Please, speak for yourself...that strikes me as absurd as saying that all muslims fly planes into buildings or walk around strapped w/ explosives, all Africans are shady power-hungry warlords, all North Koreans are dictators w/ a penchant for bad haricuts and nuclear arms, etc. frankly, if people from other countries view me based solely on what the see in our current President/administration...they are shallow, stereotyping and (like go go said) not worth my time.

 

in the face of all the bullshit the current admin has wrought upon us, you can tuck your tail between your legs, disavow being american and really move to Canada...or you can bide your time and use the upcoming election (and days leading up to it) to reclaim what you do/did value about being an american. there is a long list of examples of bad things globally this country has done, but I firmly believe there is an equal list of good things as well.

 

sorry to rant, and this wasn't just directed at Edie...it just pisses me off FOR people like her that are that downtrodden. hanging your head or sitting around calling people nazis, the devil, etc. isn't going to make things better, as stated...stake claim to what you think american should mean and go out and make it so.

[Narziss]

Our leaders, elected or appointed, work and represent us as a country and as individuals to the rest of the world. If I disagree with the way things are being handled by those leaders, and I am outraged with how I'm being viewed (or threatened) by those affected by those global policies, I'm going to speak up about it any chance I get. I'm going to let my friends know, my family, the people running for office, the people in office, the news and even those that may like or dislike us all around the world. We live in a global society no matter what you believe. Our foreign policy and the manner in which we dictate that policy around the world is a disgrace.

 

The notion of speaking my mind and utilizing that god given right to do so is somehow an aid to the enemy is both ridiculous and bullshit. Trying to condition the people to keep quiet and just accept what you are given because it's improper or wrong to contest it is sketchy and goes against the freedoms in which I was raised.

 

Will Oliver Stone's words carry much weight in the world, I doubt it, but I have no problem with him stating them. I support his right to do so.

[bjorn_skurj]

Unfortunately the free press has been out to lunch (wined and dined by corporations) for a long time and if anyone could shine a light on what is truly happening, they could. But they don't because the people running the news companies are richer than ever and are as interested in free press about as much as Bush is.

1. The "free press" ARE corporations.

2. And this goes to one's basic view of human nature: it is assumed by some that if the "truth" about the Iraq war - that it was done for reasons other than a direct threat against the security of the United States - had been proclaimed loudly enough in late 2002, there would have been a public outcry that would have stopped it. I disagree. In the post 9/11 environment, I think a lot of Americans wanted to see some Arabs get killed. Also, in the era of the all-volunteer military, the majority of Americans weren't really affected by the deployments, injuries and deaths to U.S. troops. I think the reason there were so many protests over Vietnam was less the immorality of the war and more people's personal asses being subject to the draft. In short, I don't believe there's this essential morality and love of freedom that somehow magically imbues the American people more than any other people. So sue me.

[EL the Famous]

Let's be clear, there is absolutely nothing wrong w/ speaking up and expressing your outrage...but I can definitely see that saying WE suck or AMERICA sucks versus GEORGE W. BUSH sucks provides aid to the enemy. when I say 'enemy'...I mean both abroad and, more importantly, HERE.

 

Opposition to the current admin and/or the republicans lined up to take it's place, needs to figure out a better message to convince those who want to be a proud american aren't stupid for feeling that way. rather, we need to show how being american can mean that you have a global worldview and still love where you're from. calling people stupid or flagwavers or neocons or bible bangers or red staters or whatever isn't going to get it done. it's rhetoric no matter who spouts it and it blinds people from the actual issues.

 

it's that crazy ass rhetoric that makes me look like a republican or 'bush backer' or right winger every time these threads come up, but it couldn't be further from the truth. there has got to be a better way, because that way didn't work last go around. force the issues and forget the namecalling and labels.

[owl]

I think the reason there were so many protests over Vietnam was less the immorality of the war and more people's personal asses being subject to the draft. In short, I don't believe there's this essential morality and love of freedom that somehow magically imbues the American people more than any other people. So sue me.

 

It has been said that Vietnam effectively ended when the draft began.

 

saying WE suck or AMERICA sucks versus GEORGE W. BUSH sucks provides aid to the enemy. when I say 'enemy'...I mean both abroad and, more importantly, HERE.

 

I think that "aiding the enemy" is a bullshit excuse to cap free speech. No offense to you, El F. You didn't come up with the idea.

 

But do you think that the ground fighters in Iraq and Afghanistan have time to surf the net and watch CNN? They just listen to what their leaders say, lies and truth, and they believe it regardless of the reality.

 

I think that short of giving away our secret attack plans or actual treason, evoking the "aiding the enemy" tactic is just a way to turn disagreeing people against each other and build nationalism instead of rationalism!

 

On the other hand, I strongly believe that if you live in America and take part in both its unfortunate excesses and wonderful greatness, you should always maintain a degree of patriotism and appreciation, and give thanks for what you have.

 

I don't believe in the "If you don't like it, leave" tactic, either, but I do believe that people who truly don't like it do leave. The rest of us stay, and we're here because we're a part of it.

[Narziss]

i'm merely afraid of the 'you're with us or you're against us' rhetoric taking on a more official and criminal tone.

 

i have love, pride and patriotism for this country because i have the right to speak up and blast the officials i either voted for or against without the fear of imprisonment or death. i refuse to have patriotism, pride or love for anything simply because i should. i have to earn my place in this world just like everyone else does. if you want my trust, faith and respect, earn it just like i have to day in and day out. that goes for the garbage man, the grocery store clerk and the president of the united states.

 

unfortunately the level of seriousness given to our government and its officials, their actions and their deeds are incredibly varied around this country. sometimes the only way you can reach potential voters is to find ways to get your feelings or message on tv or in the headlines.

[Edie]

i'm merely afraid of the 'you're with us or you're against us' rhetoric taking on a more official and criminal tone.

 

i have love, pride and patriotism for this country because i have the right to speak up and blast the officials i either voted for or against without the fear of imprisonment or death. i refuse to have patriotism, pride or love for anything simply because i should.

 

[Narziss]

 

I said that in a low, husky voice too.

[owl]

??

 

[plasticeyeball]

I drive by one of those 10 minute oil change places every day to and from work that has one of the light up signs you roll out to the street with the slide in letters.

 

All summer, the message was :

 

NOW WE HAVE 2 ENEMIES TO FIGHT

THE TERRORISTS AND THE NEW YORK TIMES!!!

 

He finally changed it a week or so ago, just after the latest UN affair. Now it says:

 

HUGO CHAVEZ, GET THE HELL

OUT OF MY COUNTRY!!!

 

good stuff. always gives me a chuckle on the ride home.

[owl]

good stuff. always gives me a chuckle on the ride home.

 

One time, when I was driving in upstate PA a few months after September 11, 2001, I saw that some guy had painted a giant plywood eagle with a grip on Osama's giant severed head and eyeballs gouged out.

 

I mean HUGE. Like 30 feet tall.

[Edie]

I said that in a low, husky voice too.

 

I am weak in the knees

[embiggen]

??

 

 

[EL the Famous]

I think that "aiding the enemy" is a bullshit excuse to cap free speech. No offense to you, El F. You didn't come up with the idea.

 

But do you think that the ground fighters in Iraq and Afghanistan have time to surf the net and watch CNN? They just listen to what their leaders say, lies and truth, and they believe it regardless of the reality.

 

I don't believe in the "If you don't like it, leave" tactic, either, but I do believe that people who truly don't like it do leave. The rest of us stay, and we're here because we're a part of it.

 

I'm sure some people are twisting it to use it as a 'bullshit excuse to cap free speech' and absolutely no offense taken. At the same time, i'm sure that the groundfighters don't have time for any of that, but my guess is that part of whatever methodology of propaganda their leaders do use taps into it. Why fuel the fire?

 

To clarify what I mean by that, I don't think you should cap your right to speak freely...but you should choose the words you're using carefully. Don't give them any ability to say 'see, even americans hate america!' or don't give those here the ability to say 'why would you vote for a party who's constinuancy hates america?' Be passionate, but base the passion on indisputable data of how poor of a job an administration like this has done (we all know there's plenty of facts to support)...help set the priorities of discourse versus just saying that people are worried about the wrong things.

 

I respectfully disagree that people who truly don't like it do leave. If so, there are dozens of posters here that would currently reside in Canada (not that thereis anything wrong w/ Canada). Again, it's defeatist rhetoric that the same people you are looking to overcome can jump all over. Plus, I say if your solution to show how you oppose things is to threaten to leave...get a pair, quit making hollow threats and just do it. I'll stay here and try to make a difference.

[aricandover]

Plus, I say if your solution to show how you oppose things is to threaten to leave...get a pair, quit making hollow threats and just do it. I'll stay here and try to make a difference.

 

exactly. after Bush was re-elected, my buddy Kevin took off and joined the Finnish army.

[owl]

I respectfully disagree that people who truly don't like it do leave.

 

Well, my (perhaps poorly-worded) point was more that people who stay in America actually do appreciate it, even if they threaten to leave, it is a hollow threat. They like it too much to actually follow through.

 

If they truly didn't like it (such as the convenience of being able to say inflammatory things and not be persecuted), they would leave. More a jab at the hypocrites, if that makes any sense.

 

[owl]

I'm probably just going crazy and even more incoherent than usual because it's the end of the day.

[EL the Famous]

I'm probably just going crazy and even more incoherent than usual because it's the end of the day.

 

I hit crazy by noon today, so no worries.

 

Seriously, everybody, speak freely...and wisely. You aren't going to win back anything w/ the 'I know you are, but what am I?' technique. I realize how frustrating things have become, but c'mon...

[bjorn_skurj]

Is there any nation on Earth eager to take in a bunch of disaffected American leftists?

[EL the Famous]

Is there any nation on Earth eager to take in a bunch of disaffected American leftists?

 

9 months ago, I would have told you Dreamin' Judy's house, but she's got a kid now...so it may be kind of cramped.

[Edie]

I am an American who is hates what America is becoming.

 

And I refuse to "choose my words wisely" as that somehow feels like it connotes that if I don't there is an execution squad ready and waiting for me. (Not that you are, btw.)

[aricandover]

Is there any nation on Earth eager to take in a bunch of disaffected American leftists?

 

you can hang out with my friend, in Finland

[bjorn_skurj]

you can hang out with my friend, in Finland

That was a rhetorical question. I'm staying right here. My fantasy is to lead a guerilla army in the Catskills.

[EL the Famous]

I am an American who is hates what America is becoming.

 

And I refuse to "choose my words wisely" as that somehow feels like it connotes that if I don't there is an execution squad ready and waiting for me. (Not that you are, btw.)

 

me too. so i'll do what I can to change it, just like those before me did what they could to make it better in the face of times THEY didn't like what it was becoming. do you think you're the first person in american history to say they hate what america is becoming? how many times have people said 'this country is at an all time low, we're doomed' only to have people rise up and move it forward in a better direction?

 

how about 'speak intelligently'? cripes.

[John Smith]

I'm sure some people are twisting it to use it as a 'bullshit excuse to cap free speech' and absolutely no offense taken. At the same time, i'm sure that the groundfighters don't have time for any of that, but my guess is that part of whatever methodology of propaganda their leaders do use taps into it. Why fuel the fire?

 

To clarify what I mean by that, I don't think you should cap your right to speak freely...but you should choose the words you're using carefully. Don't give them any ability to say 'see, even americans hate america!' or don't give those here the ability to say 'why would you vote for a party who's constinuancy hates america?' Be passionate, but base the passion on indisputable data of how poor of a job an administration like this has done (we all know there's plenty of facts to support)...help set the priorities of discourse versus just saying that people are worried about the wrong things.

 

I respectfully disagree that people who truly don't like it do leave. If so, there are dozens of posters here that would currently reside in Canada (not that thereis anything wrong w/ Canada). Again, it's defeatist rhetoric that the same people you are looking to overcome can jump all over. Plus, I say if your solution to show how you oppose things is to threaten to leave...get a pair, quit making hollow threats and just do it. I'll stay here and try to make a difference.

 

Actually right now they are going to do what they do regardless of what is being said here in our country because we have 145,000 troops and thousands of contractors/governmental aagency people there occupying their country.