Attention Homeland Security

[MrRain422]

so...

 

since white people took land unfairly from the native americans we shouldn't enforce existing immigration laws for the benefit of taxpayers who have contributed to the economy and fabric of the country and broken no laws.

 

I see now

 

Not even close to what I said, but thanks.

 

What I said was, people could be a little more sympathetic and not so vindictive. I said explicitly that I saw the need for enforcing these laws.

 

Look, I think that this issue may be impossible to deal with without at least a little bit of hypocrisy, but I think we could at least acknowledge this hypocrisy and stop pretending like these are terrible people who are doing something terrible. Given our history, I would just like us to approach this more reasonably and more level-headed without all the vindictiveness.

[MrRain422]

Probably because you are comparing two extremely different moments in time w/ completely different circumstances/civilizations.

 

On a side note, am I supposedd to feel personally guilty about that period of time and, if so, what is the proper recourse...deport myself back to England?

 

That's fair. So what was it about the circumstances of those times that justified what happened then? What made it morally and legally acceptable to invade a continent, slaughter it's native people, and take over the land? And what is it about today's current circumstances that make it comparatively worse to immigrate illegally, work a shit job, and feed your family? I'm open minded and willing to learn.

[EL the Famous]

That's fair. So what was it about the circumstances of those times that justified what happened then? What made it morally and legally acceptable to invade a continent, slaughter it's native people, and take over the land?

 

And what is it about today's current circumstances that make it comparatively worse to immigrate illegally, work a shit job, and feed your family? I'm open minded and willing to learn.

 

I don't have answers to the first line of questions, as I never said what happened then was justified or morally acceptable. If you are inferring that my lack of PERSONAL guilt over what happened, means that I don't find it sad...you're incorrect. Legally, horrible as it was, I don't think any laws existed to be broken.

 

Which leads me to the second line of questions, where we now do have laws that are in place not just to protect legal residents of the US, but those who want to gamble w/ not only their lives, but the lives of their families as well. You were the one that was comparing the two situations and I in no way would compare these illegal immigrants to those who slaughtered native americans...in fact, that was my point, I can't correlate the two scenarios.

 

I think that immigration reform needs to happen, that a more level-set process needs to be put in place...but until that time, using the original example that started that thread, I can't feel that much compassion for someone who entered the US illegally not once, but TWICE and than has the audacity to hop up on a pulpit and wave it in front of the face of those who have become legal citizens.

 

I also refuse to carry baggage or ascribe myself some level of personal guilt over incidents that happened in the past I had absolutely no control over. Using slavery as an example, the fact that certain members of the african-american community are still waiting for 'reperations' versus taking accountability for how they are living in the here and now, is holding them back just as much as the slave owners so many years ago.

 

Sorry, again, i hate to see people shackled by the victim mentality and/or sense of entitlement...

[alison the wilca]

Yeah, there are a few million dead Native Americans who would probably agree with you on that.

 

Sorry, for some reason I'm overly sensitive to this issue, I guess. I understand that the law is the law, and that we have to enforce them to a degree. I just think that the tone of the debate on this particular issue is often particularly vindicitive and lacking in compassion...

 

I don't know if you are calling me vindicitve or what but I certainly understand and sympathize with families in need and searching for a better life. I think there has to be a better,easier (probably cheaper), and LEGAL way for decent and hard-working people and families to come here. Do I sympathize with someone in open defiance of the country she wants to belong in? Not really. I feel badly that her child is caught in the middle of this, though.

[anodyne]

i saw a mexican-american immigration activist in LA saying that he didn't cross the border, the border crossed his great grandfather. i thought that was a clever argument.

 

this issue kinda comes down to penicillin and steel. when the us was manufacturing and growing, we needed people. after WWI and medical advances, our population exploded and we needed far less immigrants. additionally, the xenophobic hysteria of the late teens and early 20s really put up fences to immigration at a time when immigration became less necessary. we've never seen the need to lift these barriers, especially for the poor, tired, huddled masses yearning to breathe free. especially since we no longer have the heavy manufacturing base that required so much labor.

[EL the Famous]

so our population isn't larger than it was in the late teens and early 20s?

[anodyne]

I think there has to be a better,easier (probably cheaper), and LEGAL way for decent and hard-working people and families to come here.

you're right, there is and there should be a way implemented. however, as long as people are profitable it is not going to change. mexicans and central americans who slip in illegally are employed at starvation wages (often, not always) and have no legal recourse. unethical employers take advantage of these people in many ways (see the fictionalized film BREAD AND ROSES if you haven't). big business loves illegal labor. the depressed wages in their home countries is just as beneficial to american corporations. if you want an interesting read, check out what coca-cola's labor record looks like in honduras.

[anodyne]

so our population isn't larger than it was in the late teens and early 20s?

our population is MUCH larger, which is why immigrants are even less needed for the jobs that aren't here anymore. labor unions (which i tend to support) were quite adamantly racist and xenophobic with their protectionism. now that constituency of the democratic party's value has been moved to the social conservative's platform for security reasons. it's nearly the same thing.

[WilcoFan]

Yeah, there are a few million dead Native Americans who would probably agree with you on that.

 

Sorry, for some reason I'm overly sensitive to this issue, I guess. I understand that the law is the law, and that we have to enforce them to a degree. I just think that the tone of the debate on this particular issue is often particularly vindicitive and lacking in compassion, especially considering our own history and how this nation came into being in the first place (not necessarily here, but just in general). If certain laws are necessary for our security, then fine, but I can't stand it when people treat this issue as if these people are subhuman or bad people when they take desperate measures to improve their own lives or the those of their families.

 

Non-native civilization on this continent was founded by brutal illegal immigrants, but so many people fail to see a parallel at all.

 

 

You say that we need to force them to a "degree." What degree? To what degree would you want the law enforced if someone killed your best friend? Would it bother you if the police decided not to lock that person up, or for your state's attorney not to press charges against this person.

 

My point is that this nation is able to thrive because the laws that we abide by are there to protect us. They are the only thing that maintain the balance between lawlessness and civility.

[hacienda]

You say that we need to force them to a "degree." What degree? To what degree would you want the law enforced if someone killed your best friend?

 

That's an interesting take. I read "to a degree" more in terms of speeding or drug use than murder. The US only enforces speeding and drug laws to a degree--hopefully, in the case of murder, the laws are more universally enforced. In any case, I know a lot of "legalize it" pot smokers who buy, sell, and smoke in defiance of the law--enforcement doesn't seem to be a national priority and I wouldn't argue that it should be. I suppose it depends on how seriously one regards illegal immigration or whether or not it is a "victimless" crime.

[bjorn_skurj]

I think many of you are not acknowledging that the forces of economics are more powerful than the laws of nation-states. Cash rules everything around us. If our economy didn't need tons and tons of people who will do shit jobs for nothing, illegal immigration wouldn't be a problem. I look at the problem as something to be put up with and managed as part of the downside to having a free-market economy. The unemployment rate remains pretty low, even in states with a lot of immigrants. Having someone in my family who had to go through the uber-rigmarole of obtaining citizenship legally, I understand why those who ponied up the dough and stress would be deeply pissed about some 12 million who didn't play by the rules getting a shot at eventually attaining the same status. Yes, border security is a desirable thing, but if that security inhibits the flow of goods and people enough, business will suffer. And the business of America has always been and always will be business.

[Atticus]

I understand that the law is the law, and that we have to enforce them to a degree

 

Non-native civilization on this continent was founded by brutal illegal immigrants, but so many people fail to see a parallel at all.

 

 

Not even close to what I said, but thanks.

 

What I said was, people could be a little more sympathetic and not so vindictive. I said explicitly that I saw the need for enforcing these laws.

 

1. I wasn't addressing you directly. I was making a point that in part encompassed your remarks regarding the immigrants that founded the United States and the illegal immigrants who now live in the United States.

2. You stated that the laws should be enforced "to a degree."

 

I pretty much stay out of the immigration debate on VC because the same vindictiveness that you describe gets played out here. What I intended with my post was to point out that we shouldn't neglect to enforce current immigration laws based on the logic that our existing nation was founded by less-than-sympathetic-to-the-natives immigrants. We don't make whole the wronged native Americans by rewarding continued illegal behavior by a new group of immigrants.

 

I think that some of the vindictiveness comes from the blatant and very public displays by some immigrants of the desire not to adopt certain American culture, but instead to import the culture from where they came. I'm not passing a moral judgment on that vindictiveness, rather simply making an observation re same.

[Mr. Heartbreak]

Having someone in my family who had to go through the uber-rigmarole of obtaining citizenship legally, I understand why those who ponied up the dough and stress would be deeply pissed about some 12 million who didn't play by the rules getting a shot at eventually attaining the same status.

Honestly, unless you're the one ponying up the dough, you cannot imagine how deeply pissed we actually are. But thanks for the empathy!

 

I totally agree with EL 我與您的媽媽性交 on this:

I can't feel that much compassion for someone who entered the US illegally not once, but TWICE and than has the audacity to hop up on a pulpit and wave it in front of the face of those who have become legal citizens.

Audacity is precisely the right word. I find it interesting that she is willing to abandon her son here in the states for her "cause" (after all, they could have stayed in the church). I also find it appalling that she was compared to Rosa Parks in the press. I had no idea that enforcement of immigration laws was sooo racist. Maybe I'll fly to Europe, overstay my visa, and then cry "racism" when they deport this American back to the US.