Littlebear

anyone knows Joy Lynn White? such a great singer!

you don't need to. if you click the number of posts in the thread it will show you that you've posted:

 

Littlebear 25

yeah but it's not 25 posts to say West is great - if you read the whole thread you'll see I posted about many other things

That "effort" turned into twenty-three posts.

 

That's not an effort, that's a campaign.

Sorry? Twenty-three posts to express how I enjoy it? No, sir. I must have posted five (six? seven? why should I count) at best to put my point, and I turned my point differently each time.

If you find me "extremely tiresome", I find you pretty disrespectful towards me.

I have to side with the big man on this...I actually liked the album until I read this thread.

Wow.

I acknowledge that I'm firmly in the camp that finds West to be disappointing, but that aside, your constant cheerleading for this record is becoming extremely tiresome.

 

Dude. Some of us don't like the album all that much. The more you try to tell us how great it is, the more firmly entrenched we're likely to become in our opposition to it, or at least to you. We're fully entitled to not be enthralled with this album ... just let it go.

I made an effort to express how I enjoy it, I think it's more interesting and less annoying than people just saying "it's disappointing".

none of them touch her first album though

It's not the same kind of album. I personally prefer the latest stuff. The first one is certainly great but not easy to listen to, it's really raw, her voice too loud at times (to my ears at least).

"Goddamn HIV"...

Great album! It's in line of the previous two, 1000 Kisses and Impossible Dream, maybe even better. I must be romantic, can't stop playing "Heavenly Day' and many other gems (Railroad Wings, Burgundy Shoes, etc).

What a voice. She's got soul.

Maybe some of you want "great songs" and don't find them here. But maybe West is more a full album than a collection of songs? Just a thought. I can't say right now if there are great songs here or not, I'm just taken by the album's stream, and Lu's voice.

Come on, people, listen to the music... do you ever listen to ambient or space music? Lucinda did never record so beautiful music in my opinion... it's in line of Essence, but the textures are more rich. Why don't you hear it? Let yourself flow in it, it's easy...

As I said earlier, it's close to what Matthew Ryan does, too. Did you listen to the latter's magnificent latest album, From a Late Night High Rise?

Lucinda also sang with him on one song of his albums, Concussion I think it was.

I get the feeling that people disappointed in West are those who were expecting something more alt.country, or roots-rock. I say that respectfully. Unless it's really the lyrics that bug some of you, but personally I don't buy that criticism.

Lovely, isn't it?

I didn't know that band, by a guy named Jason Quever, based in San Francisco - it's his second album.

no thanks. I'm about ready for her to step in front of a bus.

looks like you did it already, judging by your avatar

what kind of music is it?

I know what you mean. Often an artist is so rooted in a specific culture--which is why, say, Faye Wong hasn't crossed over to the West--that people outside that culture have difficulty appreciating what makes them special. Your argument, I think, is that Lucinda Williams translates well because she has a universal appeal that doesn't require specific cultural knowledge, as your interest in her proves. On the flipside, though, this cultural dynamic may be precisely why you haven't really responded to Bob Dylan. His art, in my opinion at least, is so deeply rooted in the American character that I can see why he might not translate well for people unfamiliar with that sensibility.

Thanks for your input.

To tell a bit about me, I went to US roots music, americana and all that, from Car Wheels on a Gravel Road. It's an album that marked my life. I also got the net around the same time, went to her discussion list, made some contacts with cool American posters, and one of them especially sent me a lot of CDR compilations that lead me to many American singer songwriters such as Townes Van Zandt, Steve Young, Billy Joe Shaver, Iris DeMent, David Olney, etc... And country music is probably the music that moves me the most from many music genres I learned to like (blues, folk, soul, and jazz more lately). I know my "classics" and started with Jimmie Rodgers (whom I can hear the influence on Loudon Wainwright for instance), Hank Williams (amazing), etc... See: I consider Hank Williams to be as great as Dylan lyrically if not better, since he keeps it immediate and simple.

I like Bob Dylan, especially the sixties and a bit of the seventies. I have purchased Blood on the Tracks lately and I really like it, though I still have a little trouble with his voice. I'm pretty much a fan of Highway 61 Revisited, but it remains difficult to like it from start to finish, its power depends a lot of his lyrics. I hear the lyrics flow, it's fascinating, I hear he says something, and has something to say. But I did never try to translate his lyrics, for those I find a bit cryptic or complex. I understand well the lyrics of The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan, on the other hand. The Dylan I just can't get into is the one of the twenty last years, because of his voice, but also the sound of his records. I went to see him live in France in the 90's, it's one of the worst concerts I've seen in my life - unfortunately.

I am personally especially moved by voices. Voices carry so much feelings to me. And some voices really bug me. Elvis Costello is another one I hardly stand (except on the latest records, though).

West is a really nice surprise to me, as I didn't like World Without Tears for the most part (I save three or four songs), and the Fillmore is mostly awful because of her vocals.

With West, Lucinda makes an album with a great musical flow, that you can appreciate from start to finish. All the songs could have been mixed together. To me, it stands as a success in her discography, hats off I say. It's the contrary of a decline or a disappointment, it's an admirable redemption!

Bob Dylan is more known to the world than Lucinda Williams. He, without a doubt, deserves his recognition. But he's also like a big tree hiding a forest of worthy singer songwriters, and when people keep saying "it's not Bob Dylan", it makes me cringe. He's certainly overrated. He's not THAT superior to others. I'm sure Dylan himself would complain about that.

In his radio show, Dylan played one of my favorite singer songwriters: Ron Sexsmith.

It's at least a different kind of power. Sometimes poetry is musical, and sometimes music is poetic, but nevertheless, music is not the same thing as poetry. Lyrics, since they exist as part of a complex dynamic that includes an essential interaction with sonic qualities, have an entirely different context than a poem--which is why, at least sometimes, judging lyrics according to conventional literary notions of poetry isn't just unfair, it's missing the point. Words that might seem trite when isolated on a page often accumulate meaning when accompanied by a specific musical dynamic or delivery. Every poster in this thread can name an undisputedly classic rock song that has lyrics that would read poorly when isolated from the rest of the song.

 

That said, sometimes the literary qualities of certain lyrics are enough to justify any song. And sometimes certain artists--such as Lucinda Williams--have written enough lyrics that can stand alone on the page that we've come to expect that from them, even when that expectation isn't always fair.

 

Point is, each set of lyrics ought to be taken on its own terms, in proper context.

Great post.

You basically said everything I wish I could say in my second language.

As a human being, I don't know what you mean.

I mean that the power of her voice does cross the language barriers.

But anyway, it's the same in French for me. As early as you sing some lyrics, you give them more power than what they just mean on the paper.

Just in case we need reminding who is calling it a masterpiece....from the littlebear's mouth.

 

(Maybe we also need to school him on why Dylan IS a great vocalist....and why Louden Wainwright III is a pretty good songwriter, but hardly close to Dylan.)

 

LouieB

I confirm what I said: West is a masterpiece. No problem with that.

We certainly have different criteria to make our respective appreciations. Your problem, on the other hand, is to be so sure of your points, and speak of "schooling" me, using "we" as if you were part of a majority, whereas this majority is just based on old and narrow-minded certitudes.

There's no way to compare Lucinda to Bob Dylan, really. There's no point. Lucinda is an artist of her own.

Everytime a singer songwriter writes folk songs on guitar and plays a harp, he's compared to Dylan. It's been the case with Loudon Wainwright III, John Prine, Butch Hancock, and so on. It's just ridiculous. I prefer Loudon Wainwright to Dylan, for instance. I prefer hundreds of singer songwriters to Dylan.

You say Lucinda isn't up to Dylan upon lyrical criteria, I assume? Well, I can reply to you that Dylan doesn't sing like Lucinda, he's not sensual, and he'll never make my joy like Lucinda does.

The best singer songwriter, in many ways, would be the one that is talented in every department, but Dylan's vocals are just awful.

West is musically flawless from track 3 to 11. It'll be hard to find a singer as immediately powerful as Lucinda this year. Her delivery is universal, and as a French, I guess I can attest.

Masterpiece!!!

No slam on Louie at all here, but how many albums are truly "masterpieces?" I can think of very, very few off the cuff that I'd listen to all the way through each time due to the fact that they are masterpieces. Every artist has hits/misses on their albums.

 

Generally, (and this may be indicative of my feeble brain or a tinge of the apathetic in me), I'm happy if a handful of the tunes on an album move me. Take Dylan's latest Modern Times. There are some well written/composed tunes on there. There are also a few I typical skip over. Yet, it's hailed as one of the best albums last year. Go figure.

 

I guess my point is that not all all of Shakespeare's works are masterpieces, either, but they're still worthy of a read here and there.

To boot, I'm pretty sure we all here have different criterias and references. All the critics of the world can't agree on one unanimous masterpiece.

In my opinion, the most interesting takes are argumentative interpretations, that's usually what I like to read on forums or anywhere else.