sweetheart-mine

Wow, we are having an actual logical and informative discussion about the Green Party......this is serious fun....

 

The Greens have an actual political presence in Europe, where parlimentary government more or less works. I wonder what there record is, where they don't seem like total organizational spazes.

 

 

5% is actually a shitload....The closest person to actually accomplishing a third party win as you point out was Ross Perot, one of the nuttier folks on the planet in some ways. John Anderson, the most rational and successful third party candidate I did not remember, only summoned up 7% of the vote. Amazing. George Wallace's platform (as one who is old enough to remenmber) was essentially states rights or more honestly white supremecy. We should go back and see about folks like Eugene V. Debs and Norman Thomas and other left and right wing third party candidates of the 50 years prior to that.

 

There is only one choice this year...the choice to go with the same old shit or try someone new and non-traditional out. You know what I am talkin about....

 

LouieB

a friend of mine, american but has lived in england for 40 years, is definitely left of center and we discuss politics all the time. she has never once mentioned the green party in europe, so i suspect they're organizational spazzes there, too. i'm going to ask her, though. in '04 we held a few meetings at our place, and about halfway into a meeting i was ready to burn the house down to get them out of here. i think one of the problems is that people active in the party like to consider themselves marginal people, and i get that, but if you aren't willing to let some of it go for the sake of organization -- well, organization isn't going to happen. although many were genuinely committed to some issues, they seemed pretty attached to their self-images as, oh my god, i guess you'd call them "mavericks." hanging on to that notion 100% when you're trying to grow a party gets in the way. the green party mavericks have trouble working as a team, at least here. people rarely knew what anyone else in the party was doing because they were too busy talking nonstop themselves. (keep in mind this is being written by a person who can't stand joining a group of any kind, so who am i to talk!)

i almost forgot about john anderson in 1980. i voted for him. in 1992 perot caught our interest for about a week and then we realized he was mostly crazy.

voted for nader in 2000, but m. christine, you win a prize for admitting you voted for him in '04 too! here, i'll admit something embarrassing: in 1992 my husband and i were delegates to our state democratic convention for . . . jerry brown.

Guiliani time!

oh ugh.

And a third party like the Greens will get some votes in any election. . . .

yah, most people have heard of the green party by now, so those disappointed with the major parties' candidates will sometimes vote for them. other than those folks, it's the same green party members voting over and over in each election. pat lamarche in maine was actually the green party's v.p. candidate in '04 (with david cobb as presidential candidate), and in '06 she ran for governor here. the problem is, i've met her, as have a lot of other people in the state, and she's got a lot of problems -- including an addiction or two and generally erratic behavior. don't get me wrong, she has done a lot of good work on local fronts and can give a good speech, but would i ever vote for her? no way. (and i'm a green party member at the moment!)

great things can start out and grow at the grassroots level, but for a really viable third party to develop, it's going to take some long-term commitment by people who can think straight, agree on a platform, raise funds, and yes, certainly attract enough interest to staff offices and gradually develop great and knowledgeable candidates. i don't see it happening. i wish it would, but it requires a lot more work than 99.99999% of people can or are willing to devote themselves to.

i'd love to see the death of the two-party system as well, but what i'd really like to see would be these 'alternative' parties really take the time to legitimately build their respective fifedoms into viable entities via more focus on state and local...versus throwing a guy in the presidential race every four years or bobob's plan of building one on the back of further economic ruin, thanks.

you're right, that's exactly what they need to do. take the green party, for example. in '04 they made a concerted effort to run candidates for the state legislature in maine, and they did successfully convince 23 people to run as reps for their districts (my husband, about the most unnatural politician you'd ever meet, was one of them, what a nightmare). that was a great beginning, considering we'd had only one green party member in the legislature up to '04. but very soon the campaigns started falling apart. the people running them were hopelessly disorganized, with not only different districts having their own various agendas but also individuals within districts, even tiny ones like ours. they couldn't hold a decent meeting to save their lives. it was kind of hilarious sometimes, but the end result was that no one new from the green party was elected. my husband got 12% of the vote, and some others did unexpectedly well in their districts, so you'd think there was something to build on there. party workers were worn out from it, though, and to this day just wander around doing their own thing but saying they're from the green party and talking at people if they can find someone to listen. it's kind of sad. some kind of stamina and enduring platform was missing.

Just watched Nancy Pfotenhauer on Hardball trying to defend Palin's statement that the veep is in charge of the Senate. I felt slightly sorry for her.

Did she know what she was getting herself into when she signed onto this campaign?

i don't feel sorry for her at all. it's her job, of course, to defend anything the campaign does/says no matter how ridiculous, but she has often done it with a sort of condescending snottiness that makes me want to gently land a pie in her face.

I think it's kind of funny how Powell has been beatified by democrats. He was at the forefront of the campaign to go into Iraq, and yet nobody holds him accountable like they do everyone else. It's just weird how he's the only person related to the administration who has been given the benefit of the doubt. Everyone else are liars, he was just mislead.

"beatified" -- another version of the stupid "messiah" trip. you might want to rethink buying into that stuff, since it's crap.

i hold powell accountable for his role in the iraq invasion, absolutely. he was mislead, but i also thought he was cowardly in how he dealt with it in public (or, more to the point, didn't). he should have renounced the thing as soon as he found out he'd been made a fool's messenger, and loudly. he didn't. to me it's the biggest blemish on his record, and it's a biggie.

given the rest of his record, however, why would an obama supporter be unhappy about his well thought out and articulated endorsement of obama?

I suppose this is where you tell me that by reading the written word, I've lost context and don't appreciate the passion and conviction displayed in the actual speech.

i don't have to tell you. you know it and said it yourself. (thanks.)

Powell just wants a cushy cabinet position.

did you watch and listen to the man give his endorsement? just curious.

buchanan is way off the mark. he basically chose one thing -- an aside -- out of a substantial and multi-faceted endorsement and then warped it beyond all recognition, conveniently leaving out the meat of powell's reasoning and decision. makes buchanan look like a simpleton, but if he's happy with that, well, go for it, pat.

I don't want to jinx anything here, but Virginia is on the brink of voting a democrat into the white house for the first time since 1964. i am sure it is not a coincidence that caliber and i just happened to move here this year.

 

hm?

 

you're welcome.

thank you.

Speaking of the unrepentant bomber Bill Ayers, perhaps everyone has forgotten the reason John McCain was shot down and spent 5 years as a POW was he was bombing North Vietnam....can I repeat that, bombing North Vietnam...oh shit I forgot you can't really talk about that...sorry....

thank you for bringing this up, really. i no longer remember how many innocent vietnamese civilians were killed by our bombs -- probably countless -- but mccain is hardly one to point fingers at anyone about bombs, killing children, or whatever else he may think his record is superior about.

transformational means transformational, it doesn't mean messiah. as someone pointed out, bush has been transformational -- and because of it, a lot of people are looking for transformational again, of a different sort, out of this black hole.

i think any changes obama might manage to bring about on the home front would be down-to-earth, slow-moving, and more inclusive than we've seen in a very long time.

it's on the international front, our relations with the rest of the world, where he could soar in ways crucial to citizens of all countries. he does stand for intelligent communication, diplomacy, hope, and we-are-all-in-this-together; this inspires not only americans but people all over the globe. i think the world is sorely missing this kind of leader -- even starved for it.

i'll be rooting for the rays and have no idea who will win.

If I could, I'd buy all you Obama supporters this for Christmas.

i'm sorry, but that lame poke has gotten so old it's crumbling under my feet as i type.

Me...I vacilate between being a Timocrat and a Monarchist.

 

But we all should realize we now live in a videocracy.

don't scare me.

Videocrat

ok, please don't scare me.

jon stewart was incredible last night on palin, bachmann, and the whole anti-american thing. if you watch the rerun today, don't miss the very end, where he has a bit more to say about his "fuck you" re palin in boston the other night . . .

And no Beltman, I mean, it's like you're baking a cake, but you sort of forgot the flower.

so nicely put! yes, where is beltmann and where is q23? not to mention viatroy. also crow daddy ____ . fun idea and great job, edie, and you might be wishing about now you'd never started it.

i think "voice of reason" should go to mr rain, along with his balanced and fair. he is consistently, admirably, and amazingly reasonable. i'm reasonable only on some days.

edit: mountain bed!

Yep. Its all or nothing for him at this point, because I think he has pretty well eviscerated his reputation with anybody who wasn't already firmly on his side to begin with in this election. Which is kind of sad, really, for a guy who has long had a pretty decent reputation across the board. McCain the presidential candidate is barely recognizable, at this point, from who I thought he was at the beginning and my opinion of him has plummeted. Is it really him we've been seeing over the past several months or has he just given in to campaign advisers who tell him "this is how Republicans win elections in the 21st Century"?

 

The biggest reason it sounds completely implausible when he says stuff like "I'm not Bush" is because the tone of the campaign down the stretch is a lot like what another round of Bush/Cheney/Rove would have felt like. If you can't communicate how your policies are substantially different from your predecessor and your campaign persona isn't much different, then how do you go about distancing yourself from him???

yes, at this point, i think "who is the real john mccain?" is the question! i really would like to know.

edit: p.s. i watched the old "stepford wives" movie the other night. it didn't help.

Exactly, sweetheart-mine. I used to have a lot of respect for McCain, and was choosing Obama based on the actual issues, not because Obama is some kind of second coming. But between his answer to the outbursts from the "fringe" at his rallies and his repeated use of the term "pro abortion" at the last debate I lost the remainder of my respect for him. The increase in negative campaign tactics is really the last straw for me.

yes, we almost wrote the same post! and i think colin powell also would agree with your last sentence here.

I think one of the big issues of this election IS about The Chosen One's skin.....as in, how THIN it is.

 

 

 

You can't be serious. A few knuckleheads scream out at a rally and that really bothers you?

 

 

Wait until he gets in office. Bush has been called every name in the book over the past 4 years. If Obama gets offended by the things you mention, he's gonna have a loooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnng 4 years in office.

obama does just fine handling the garbage that has been thrown at him in this campaign. he isn't fazed, he doesn't let it throw him.

yah, the knuckleheads do bother me. what bothers me more, though, is the campaign that is not only encouraging but planting that kind of thinking. if you can call it that. and if you don't think it's dangerous, your head is in the sand.

Another reason I think Jon Stewart is a dickhead.

a "fuck you" from a master of comedy pales in comparison to cries of "anti-american," "traitor," "terrorist," and "kill him." not to mention the call for an investigation of congress to root out "anti-americans" by the likes of michele bachmann. i wonder if you think those folks are dickheads.

Jon Stewart to Sarah Palin: '[Expletive] You.'

 

Speaking to a college audience in Boston, Mass. Friday, "Daily Show" host Jon Stewart used his stand-up routine to respond to Sarah Palin's comments about "pro-America" parts of the country, shedding the profanity restrictions that govern his Comedy Central show.

"She said that small towns, that's the part of the country she really likes going to because that's the pro-America part of the country. You know, I just want to say to her, just very quickly: [expletive] you," Stewart said to raucous applause.

and?

Limbaugh: Where are the inexperienced, white liberals Powell has endorsed?

 

Rush Limbaugh said Colin Powell's decision to get behind Barack Obama appeared to be very much tied to Obama's status as the first African-American with a chance to become president.

 

"Secretary Powell says his endorsement is not about race," Limbaugh wrote in an e-mail. "OK, fine. I am now researching his past endorsements to see if I can find all the inexperienced, very liberal, white candidates he has endorsed. I'll let you know what I come up with."

 

As for Powell's statement of concern this morning about the sort of Supreme Court justices a President McCain might appoint, Limbaugh wrote: "I was also unaware of his dislike for John Roberts, Clarence Thomas, Samuel Alito, Anthony Kennedy and Antonin Scalia. I guess he also regrets Reagan and Bush making him a four-star [general] and secretary of state and appointing his son to head the FCC. Yes, let's hear it for transformational figures."

c'mon, rush. powell is only one of many republicans and/or conservatives, both public and private, who recognize the consequences of this bush presidency and who believe a huge shift in course is needed. nothing new there, and given powell's well-articulated and obviously long-thought-out reasons for voting for obama over mccain, i think he'd vote for obama if he were purple, green, or mauve.

No - best news is I don't have to watch every pitch of the WS now, meaning I can turn off Joe Buck and Tim McCarver whenever I damn please.

oh that IS a major plus!

congrats to the rays -- they earned it well.

bobbob, i certainly can understand some of the confusion you express. but when you say this -- "I just can't stand knee jerk reactions" -- you are discounting years of thought and experience that lie behind the views of many people on this board. i have to wonder if you absorb only those posts that speak to your skepticism. i won't say anything more on behalf of the numerous people here who have expressed their thoughts eloquently in some of their posts and offered good readings over the long months of these election campaigns, but i will say this for myself: as an adult i've seen two long, mistaken, and disastrous wars waged by our country; the ups and downs of the administrations of seven presidents, both republican and democrat; and, in the past eight years, the destruction by the current administration of many of the principles i grew up believing this country stood for. there is nothing knee-jerk whatsoever in my opinions of the current candidates and the hopes and fears that helped form those opinions over the years.

DID I MENTION I WAS 40ft OR SO FROM OBAMA LAST NIGHT?????

i'd love to have been there -- i'm envious up here in the corner! how was the speech? do you have more pics?