tugmoose Posted September 7, 2006 Author Share Posted September 7, 2006 Thats just dumb. I'm sorry.So you don't want a 20-5 pitcher on your team? OK, I'll take him. I'll take Mr. 1.50 ERA, too. But don't use "he was on a bad team" as a crutch. Great pitchers make their teams better. I have no problem with Ryan - truly an all-time great. But I don't shed any tears over his team situation when he hand-picked the teams he wanted to play for the last half of his career. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tugmoose Posted September 8, 2006 Author Share Posted September 8, 2006 So a guy who is 20-5 with an ERA of 12.00 (but happens to pitch for a team that scores 15 runs a game) is better than a guy who is 5-20 with a 1.50 ERA because he pitches for a team that scores 1 run a game?Who do you want on the mound in game 7 of the World Series, where there is no consolation prize, no excuses: Mr. 20-5 12.00 ERA, or Mr. 5-20, 1.50 ERA? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bobbob1313 Posted September 8, 2006 Share Posted September 8, 2006 Who do you want on the mound in game 7 of the World Series, where there is no consolation prize, no excuses: Mr. 20-5 12.00 ERA, or Mr. 5-20, 1.50 ERA? If I have the same offense I will take the guy who gives up less runs. No question. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tugmoose Posted September 8, 2006 Author Share Posted September 8, 2006 If I have the same offense I will take the guy who gives up less runs. No question.with a 5-20 record. All's I'm saying is, for some reason, my team scoring a shitload of runs when 20-5 is on the mound. Gimme the guy who pitches just well enough to win over the guy who has bad luck and loses. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bobbob1313 Posted September 8, 2006 Share Posted September 8, 2006 with a 5-20 record. All's I'm saying is, for some reason, my team scoring a shitload of runs when 20-5 is on the mound. Gimme the guy who pitches just well enough to win over the guy who has bad luck and loses. Thats ridiculous. All the pitcher can control is what he does on the mound. Unless this 12.00 era guy is Babe Ruth at the plate, it's not even a question, you take the guy who doesn't give up runs. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tugmoose Posted September 8, 2006 Author Share Posted September 8, 2006 Thats ridiculous. All the pitcher can control is what he does on the mound. Unless this 12.00 era guy is Babe Ruth at the plate, it's not even a question, you take the guy who doesn't give up runs.with a 5-20 record. Give me the shit pitcher who's very luck. You take the great pitcher who's very unlucky. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MrRain422 Posted September 8, 2006 Share Posted September 8, 2006 (edited) He's not lucky, he has better hitters on his team. This is so fucking obvious that I can't believe we're even having this discussion. The guy who is 20-5 with a 12.00 ERA is not "lucky". He doesn't "know how to win", he's on a team that SCORES A TON OF RUNS. That's all there is to it. Unless you think he has some magical power that makes his hitters better (and makes his bullpen protect leads better), then you're making absolutely no sense at all. I don't know, I just have this weird thing where I feel that baseball skills count for more than luck over the course of an entire season. Edited September 8, 2006 by MrRain422 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MrRain422 Posted September 8, 2006 Share Posted September 8, 2006 (edited) Let's look at 2 pitchers from last year:Roger Clemens: 13-8, 1.87 ERA, 1.008 WHIP, 185/62 K/BBChris Capuano: 18-12, 3.99 ERA, 1.384 WHIP, 176/91 K/BB You would rather have the guy who gives up more than a full run more per 9 innings, and lets on 3 more baserunners per 9. You can have him. Edited September 8, 2006 by MrRain422 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tugmoose Posted September 8, 2006 Author Share Posted September 8, 2006 Let's look at 3 pitchers from last year:Roger Clemens: 13-8, 1.87 ERA, 1.008 WHIP, 185/62 K/BBChris Capuano: 18-12, 3.99 ERA, 1.384 WHIP, 176/91 K/BB You would rather have the guy who gives up more than a full run more per 9 innings, and lets on 3 more baserunners per 9. You can have him.THANK YOU SIR MAY I HAVE ANOTHER? Fact is, I would take Clemens, because he has the better winning percentage. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Moltisanti Posted September 8, 2006 Share Posted September 8, 2006 I'm trying to imagine any serious baseball person telling me that they would rather have Nolan Ryan on the mound instead of Steve Carlton. I just can't do it. Yes, Ryan has the strikeouts, yes he beat up that one dude when he charged the mound, and yes, he has a lot of no-hitters. But come on, already. We're talking about Lefty here. The guy won 27 games on one of the worst teams in recent memory. Greatest slider in the history of baseball. There's no comparison. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bjorn_skurj Posted September 8, 2006 Share Posted September 8, 2006 The greatness of Steve Carlton has been forgotten by far too many. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tugmoose Posted September 8, 2006 Author Share Posted September 8, 2006 Coolest baseball moment I ever witnessed: 1981, Vet Stadium, Rose within one hit of tying Stan Musial's NL hit mark. Carlton vs. Ryan. Full House. Rose leads off 1st with a double to tie mark. Ryan does not allow another hit until the 8th, hurting his back, comes out of game to standing O. Rose, who Ryan struck out three straight times after the double, comes to the top of the Phils' dugout. An Astros teammate alerts Ryan, Rose tips his cap, Ryan tips back. Cue goosebumps. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MrRain422 Posted September 8, 2006 Share Posted September 8, 2006 (edited) I don't remember anyone here saying specifically that they'd take Ryan over Carlton. They're actually pretty similar in a lot of areas. Career ERA and ERA+ are almost identical. Carlton's K/BB is a little better. Remarkably, their career WHIP is exactly the same. Edited September 8, 2006 by MrRain422 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bjorn_skurj Posted September 8, 2006 Share Posted September 8, 2006 Carlton was a little more of a "Death Star" type pitcher than Ryan. Sometimes, Ryan sucked. The Mets traded him because (besides the fact that M. Donald Grant was a moron) he had persistent control issues.Not much is made of it, but you could certainly make a case for a "Curse of the Nolanino" being responsible for the fact that no Mets pitcher has ever thrown a no-hitter. Many have after leaving the Mets, but never in a Mets uniform. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bobbob1313 Posted September 8, 2006 Share Posted September 8, 2006 I'd say Randy Johnson is closer to what a lot of people remember Nolan Ryan being like than Nolan Ryan actually was like. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tugmoose Posted September 8, 2006 Author Share Posted September 8, 2006 "You don't face Nolan Ryan without your rest. He's the only guy I go against that makes me go to bed before midnight." - Reggie Jackson Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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