Lucinda Williams Fans ? Come ON...

[Lammycat]

As a human being, I don't know what you mean.

[Beltmann]

Her delivery is universal, and as a French, I guess I can attest.

I know what you mean. Often an artist is so rooted in a specific culture--which is why, say, Faye Wong hasn't crossed over to the West--that people outside that culture have difficulty appreciating what makes them special. Your argument, I think, is that Lucinda Williams translates well because she has a universal appeal that doesn't require specific cultural knowledge, as your interest in her proves. On the flipside, though, this cultural dynamic may be precisely why you haven't really responded to Bob Dylan. His art, in my opinion at least, is so deeply rooted in the American character that I can see why he might not translate well for people unfamiliar with that sensibility.

[Littlebear]

It's at least a different kind of power. Sometimes poetry is musical, and sometimes music is poetic, but nevertheless, music is not the same thing as poetry. Lyrics, since they exist as part of a complex dynamic that includes an essential interaction with sonic qualities, have an entirely different context than a poem--which is why, at least sometimes, judging lyrics according to conventional literary notions of poetry isn't just unfair, it's missing the point. Words that might seem trite when isolated on a page often accumulate meaning when accompanied by a specific musical dynamic or delivery. Every poster in this thread can name an undisputedly classic rock song that has lyrics that would read poorly when isolated from the rest of the song.

 

That said, sometimes the literary qualities of certain lyrics are enough to justify any song. And sometimes certain artists--such as Lucinda Williams--have written enough lyrics that can stand alone on the page that we've come to expect that from them, even when that expectation isn't always fair.

 

Point is, each set of lyrics ought to be taken on its own terms, in proper context.

 

Great post.

 

You basically said everything I wish I could say in my second language.

[Littlebear]

I know what you mean. Often an artist is so rooted in a specific culture--which is why, say, Faye Wong hasn't crossed over to the West--that people outside that culture have difficulty appreciating what makes them special. Your argument, I think, is that Lucinda Williams translates well because she has a universal appeal that doesn't require specific cultural knowledge, as your interest in her proves. On the flipside, though, this cultural dynamic may be precisely why you haven't really responded to Bob Dylan. His art, in my opinion at least, is so deeply rooted in the American character that I can see why he might not translate well for people unfamiliar with that sensibility.

 

Thanks for your input.

 

To tell a bit about me, I went to US roots music, americana and all that, from Car Wheels on a Gravel Road. It's an album that marked my life. I also got the net around the same time, went to her discussion list, made some contacts with cool American posters, and one of them especially sent me a lot of CDR compilations that lead me to many American singer songwriters such as Townes Van Zandt, Steve Young, Billy Joe Shaver, Iris DeMent, David Olney, etc... And country music is probably the music that moves me the most from many music genres I learned to like (blues, folk, soul, and jazz more lately). I know my "classics" and started with Jimmie Rodgers (whom I can hear the influence on Loudon Wainwright for instance), Hank Williams (amazing), etc... See: I consider Hank Williams to be as great as Dylan lyrically if not better, since he keeps it immediate and simple.

 

I like Bob Dylan, especially the sixties and a bit of the seventies. I have purchased Blood on the Tracks lately and I really like it, though I still have a little trouble with his voice. I'm pretty much a fan of Highway 61 Revisited, but it remains difficult to like it from start to finish, its power depends a lot of his lyrics. I hear the lyrics flow, it's fascinating, I hear he says something, and has something to say. But I did never try to translate his lyrics, for those I find a bit cryptic or complex. I understand well the lyrics of The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan, on the other hand. The Dylan I just can't get into is the one of the twenty last years, because of his voice, but also the sound of his records. I went to see him live in France in the 90's, it's one of the worst concerts I've seen in my life - unfortunately.

 

I am personally especially moved by voices. Voices carry so much feelings to me. And some voices really bug me. Elvis Costello is another one I hardly stand (except on the latest records, though).

 

West is a really nice surprise to me, as I didn't like World Without Tears for the most part (I save three or four songs), and the Fillmore is mostly awful because of her vocals.

 

With West, Lucinda makes an album with a great musical flow, that you can appreciate from start to finish. All the songs could have been mixed together. To me, it stands as a success in her discography, hats off I say. It's the contrary of a decline or a disappointment, it's an admirable redemption!

 

Bob Dylan is more known to the world than Lucinda Williams. He, without a doubt, deserves his recognition. But he's also like a big tree hiding a forest of worthy singer songwriters, and when people keep saying "it's not Bob Dylan", it makes me cringe. He's certainly overrated. He's not THAT superior to others. I'm sure Dylan himself would complain about that.

 

In his radio show, Dylan played one of my favorite singer songwriters: Ron Sexsmith.

[El Picador]

Lou, I've got to disagree.

The sentiment certainly is direct and uncomfortable, but she accomplishes it perfectly. Plus, the tune ROCKS with Crazy Horse guitar and Ray Manzarek organ. I thought it was one of the highlights of the album.

You've got to admit, she's got BALLS!

Going to miss you next weekend.

 

I agree. This tune and this album totally do it for me. When she screams "Come On!", it's totally Lucinda. I can see the comparisons to World Without Tears but I think this album is much better.

[TheMaker]

Wow. You guys. It's fucking execrable. I know that ain't objective, but... maybe it is?

[Beltmann]

Wow. You guys. It's fucking execrable. I know that ain't objective, but... maybe it is?

The general critical consensus is that it's at least okay: Metacritic shows a respectable 68. Seems to me that calling it "execrable" is the skewed opinion. (Not to say it's a wrong opinion by any means; like you, I'm disappointed in the album. For me, though, a more accurate reading is somewhere near mediocre.)

[Littlebear]

Come on, people, listen to the music... do you ever listen to ambient or space music? Lucinda did never record so beautiful music in my opinion... it's in line of Essence, but the textures are more rich. Why don't you hear it? Let yourself flow in it, it's easy...

 

As I said earlier, it's close to what Matthew Ryan does, too. Did you listen to the latter's magnificent latest album, From a Late Night High Rise?

 

Lucinda also sang with him on one song of his albums, Concussion I think it was.

 

I get the feeling that people disappointed in West are those who were expecting something more alt.country, or roots-rock. I say that respectfully. Unless it's really the lyrics that bug some of you, but personally I don't buy that criticism.

[Littlebear]

Maybe some of you want "great songs" and don't find them here. But maybe West is more a full album than a collection of songs? Just a thought. I can't say right now if there are great songs here or not, I'm just taken by the album's stream, and Lu's voice.

[Beltmann]

Wow. You guys. It's fucking execrable. I know that ain't objective, but... maybe it is?

Lucinda did never record so beautiful music in my opinion... it's in line of Essence, but the textures are more rich. Why don't you hear it?

[cryptique]

Come on, people, listen to the music... do you ever listen to ambient or space music? Lucinda did never record so beautiful music in my opinion... it's in line of Essence, but the textures are more rich. Why don't you hear it? Let yourself flow in it, it's easy...

 

As I said earlier, it's close to what Matthew Ryan does, too. Did you listen to the latter's magnificent latest album, From a Late Night High Rise?

 

Lucinda also sang with him on one song of his albums, Concussion I think it was.

 

I get the feeling that people disappointed in West are those who were expecting something more alt.country, or roots-rock. I say that respectfully. Unless it's really the lyrics that bug some of you, but personally I don't buy that criticism.

I acknowledge that I'm firmly in the camp that finds West to be disappointing, but that aside, your constant cheerleading for this record is becoming extremely tiresome.

 

Dude. Some of us don't like the album all that much. The more you try to tell us how great it is, the more firmly entrenched we're likely to become in our opposition to it, or at least to you. We're fully entitled to not be enthralled with this album ... just let it go.

[Littlebear]

I acknowledge that I'm firmly in the camp that finds West to be disappointing, but that aside, your constant cheerleading for this record is becoming extremely tiresome.

 

Dude. Some of us don't like the album all that much. The more you try to tell us how great it is, the more firmly entrenched we're likely to become in our opposition to it, or at least to you. We're fully entitled to not be enthralled with this album ... just let it go.

 

I made an effort to express how I enjoy it, I think it's more interesting and less annoying than people just saying "it's disappointing".

[cryptique]

I made an effort to express how I enjoy it, I think it's more interesting and less annoying than people just saying "it's disappointing".

That "effort" turned into twenty-three posts.

 

That's not an effort, that's a campaign.

[Spawn's dad]

I have to side with the big man on this...I actually liked the album until I read this thread.

[Littlebear]

That "effort" turned into twenty-three posts.

 

That's not an effort, that's a campaign.

 

Sorry? Twenty-three posts to express how I enjoy it? No, sir. I must have posted five (six? seven? why should I count) at best to put my point, and I turned my point differently each time.

 

If you find me "extremely tiresome", I find you pretty disrespectful towards me.

 

 

 

 

I have to side with the big man on this...I actually liked the album until I read this thread.

 

Wow.

[Spawn's dad]

I must have posted five (six? seven? why should I count)

 

you don't need to. if you click the number of posts in the thread it will show you that you've posted:

 

Littlebear 25

[Littlebear]

you don't need to. if you click the number of posts in the thread it will show you that you've posted:

 

Littlebear 25

 

yeah but it's not 25 posts to say West is great - if you read the whole thread you'll see I posted about many other things

[Spawn's dad]

Big Parm: i've totally ignored that thread where does it get good? i can 't read 7 pages. Unless she has good cans. Then maybe I'd read it.

[El Picador]

I have to side with the big man on this...I actually liked the album until I read this thread.

 

Why can't people form their own opinions?

[Spawn's dad]

it's like I hardly even know you anymore

[cryptique]

If you find me "extremely tiresome", I find you pretty disrespectful towards me.

Get over it.

[Littlebear]

Get over it.

 

I did already. It's easy.

[LouieB]

Lucinda did never record so beautiful music in my opinion...

 

I acknowledge that I'm firmly in the camp that finds West to be disappointing, but that aside, your constant cheerleading for this record is becoming extremely tiresome.

 

Dude. Some of us don't like the album all that much. The more you try to tell us how great it is, the more firmly entrenched we're likely to become in our opposition to it, or at least to you. We're fully entitled to not be enthralled with this album ... just let it go.

I listened to most of the rest of the other night and continue to be amazed that this album is being characterized as being a masterpiece by anyone. First off, the rapping HAS to go....it sucks. In fact I don't even think it is that great an album musically either (aside from issues with the lyrics which I am willing to leave up to everyone else's discresion on this, although I think lyrically it is weak too). Lucinda has had far better backup on other records; the arrangements and musicianship on this are hackneyed and obvious in most places.

 

There are hundreds of albums released a year and this one doesn't seem worthy of this much discussion. I realized the other night that I was actually running "Come on" over and over in my mind after hearing it and I find this song stupid and insulting, but oddly catchy. Crazy isn't it??

 

And despite Littlebear thinking I am patronizing him (I am), he needs to get a copy of "Bob Dylan Performing Artist" by Paul Williams (I can vouch that volumes 1&2 are great but have not read volume 3) and maybe a copy of "Invisible Republic" by Greil Marcus for some guidance on why Bob Dylan is a major recording artist (like him or not) and why his stature is so high. Drag out a copy of Anthology of American Folk Music and enjoy "the old weird America" too.

 

LouieB

[LouieB]

Her themes on the last two studio albums do tend to be repetitive and, at times, border on tiresome, but that bluesy groove she couches them in usually hooks me.

See my comments above. Come On does have a very good hook and is somewhat enjoyable until you listen to the words and realize she is dissing the guys sexual prowess. Yikes.

 

Also until I went back and reread some of the reviews I half forgot the album is full of great musicians, because they aren't used to very good effect. Good to see Jenny Scheinman getting lots of work these days. I didn't know much about her until I saw her with Scott Amendola; sure am glad I got to shake her hand, she is one talented violinist.

 

Have fun next weekend. Will see you someday soon.

 

LouieB

[Littlebear]

Hahaha

 

I have actually that Greil Marcus book, and his observations are great - he's one of the finest music writers alive. That wouldn't keep him to recognize many other artists greatness, I guess.

 

I have also seen the movie with Dylan talking a lot about roots music, folk stuff (can't recall the title right now). He's got a good knowledge of roots music, and I have an idea from where he comes. I can see the influence of Roscoe Holcomb in some way.

 

But that doesn't mean we have to overrate him, nor compare everything to him, nor ask everybody to write like him.

 

There are hundred ways to write and sing, and many of them are great in their own way.

 

That's all I'm saying, and I don't think you "can" patronize me.