Bible thumping teenagers

[M. (hristine]

A very scientific way to look at it...but one could challenge, even in the first trimester, that it contributes so, so much to the mother's mind, heart and soul. That even at such and early stage it can cause a woman to recalibrate her life into a more postive tract and provide an increased sense of purpose.

 

I know you aren't saying that a child doesn't matter until it hits the 3-month mark, but I could never have even thought of our sons as 'parasites'. I am pro-choice, but thinki t should be a choice made only when each and every other option has been exhausted.

Yes of course! Because you and your wife wanted those babies more than anything.

 

An unwanted pregnancy rarely feels like that.

 

See, I wish for another option besides abortion. I wish for young girls to be empowered enough to refuse sex. I wish for them to be intuitive enough about their bodies to know when they are fertile. I wish for the power of the uterus to make a fertilized egg slide off of the uterine wall when a baby would be unwanted. I wish for contraception that is safe and fail safe. I wish for all of these things, because it is the non violent solution when pregnancy is not desired.

 

To expect people refrain from sex until they are ready to rear children is wholly unrealistic.

 

If I ran the world that's how it would work anyway.

 

PS I am curious about the guys posting in this thread with regards to abortion. How much unprotected sex have you had in your history? What if each of those times had resulted in pregnancy?

 

Well, except for ikol, he doesn't count. He's obviously some sort of enlightened monk.

[WilcoFan]

Yes of course! Because you and your wife wanted those babies more than anything.

 

An unwanted pregnancy rarely feels like that.

 

See, I wish for another option besides abortion. I wish for young girls to be empowered enough to refuse sex. I wish for them to be intuitive enough about their bodies to know when they are fertile. I wish for the power of the uterus to make a fertilized egg slide off of the uterine wall when a baby would be unwanted. I wish for contraception that is safe and fail safe. I wish for all of these things, because it is the non violent solution when pregnancy is not desired.

 

To expect people to refrain from sex until they are ready to raise children is wholly unrealistic.

 

If I ran the world that's how it would work anyway.

 

For the most part, abortion is wholly avoidable - but way overused.

 

 

Maybe these bible bumpers are on to something. I get scared when I channel surf past MTV. Do you realize what kids are being fed on tv in this country? I feel sorry for this next generation of children as it must be difficult to tell the difference between reality and reality tv.

[Artifex]

And don’t even get me started on the mouth breathing knuckle draggers who would force a woman to give birth to a child that is the by-product of rape.

 

How does killing the child make the experience less horrific?

 

With all due respect, I think Evangelical Christian is the very antitheses of Libertarian.

 

“The central tenet of libertarianism is the principle of self-ownership. To libertarians, an individual human being is sovereign over his/her body, extending to life, liberty and property.[7] As such, libertarians define liberty as being completely free in action, whilst not initiating force or fraud against the life, liberty or property of another human being. This is otherwise known as the non-aggression principle” – Wikipedia

 

Though an admittedly simplified description of a very diversified philosophy, I’m not quite sure how the preceding definition fits with a group of folks who are apposed to gay marriage, homosexual union in general, abortion, freedom from religion, etc. etc. etc. Folks who have openly admitted a desire to make this a Christian Nation – whether non-believers or those of another faith like it or not.

 

 

I think the media has painted an inaccurate view of the evangelical denomination. The non-denominational, or 'evangelical' movement was a movement AWAY from centralized religion. There is MUCH less emphasis places on church doctrine, and alot more placed on solely what the Bible says on such matters. A rule-based, tic-in-the box religion is what we are trying to avoid. We are striving for a religion based on a PERSONAL relationship with God. See how that jives with the libertarian mindset? ( Though to be fair, most evangelicals are more moderates than libertarians.)

 

We are all our own person, and we are all given free will.

 

We have no desire to make this nation a 'Christian Nation'. America never has been and never will be a theocracy. ( The concept of separation of church and state was brought into play to protect the Church, not the state.)

 

A person is free to live their lives however they want. Outside of a religious faith, people would have no reason to abstain from homosexuality or any other sins. Why should we expect a secular society to act like a Christian society? Instead, most evangelicals are far more worried and passionate about the people themselves, serving the community, trying to help people and love them unconditionally; to show them God's love. It's really only through seeing that that we can expect positive change in people's lives.

 

Does that make sense?

 

 

Do you guys not deny that alot of stuff is screwed up with the way media portrays the 'common' lifestyle of people, especially teens? Or is it anything for a quick buck?

[bjorn_skurj]

How does killing the child make the experience less horrific?

 

 

We have no desire to make this nation a 'Christian Nation'. America never has been and never will be a theocracy. ( The concept of separation of church and state was brought into play to protect the Church, not the state.)

You don't? Hmm. That would seem contrary to a lot of the rhetoric evangelicals are constantly spouting.

[EL the Famous]

To expect people refrain from sex until they are ready to rear children is wholly unrealistic.

 

PS I am curious about the guys posting in this thread with regards to abortion. How much unprotected sex have you had in your history? What if each of those times had resulted in pregnancy?

 

I don't expect people to refrain from sex until they are ready to rear children...I just expect them to realize the ramifications of nor doing so safely and w/ protection. Outside of rape, I hold anybody accountable for their actions when it comes to this and, then, even if they still find themsleves w/ an unwanted child...there are so many couples looking to adopt. To expect people, in this day and age, to understand the ramifications of unprotected sex is not at all unrealistic.

 

Personally, 2-3 times tops w/ the same partner who was on birth control and my part of the decision would have been to have the child. Again, i'm pro-choice, but my personal choice would be to never go this route.

[Artifex]

You don't? Hmm. That would seem contrary to a lot of the rhetoric evangelicals are constantly spouting.

 

I think the media has painted an inaccurate view of the evangelical denomination.

 

 

Also, a rally like Aquire the Fire is much more about personal change and improvement than it is about trying to brainwash kids into a certain political worldview. It's about trying to establish a passion in young teens to do something significant, to make the world a better place than it is. I'm just a genration or so above the current young teens, and it's sad to see how self-centered and ignorant they are. There's alot of shit wrong in this world. Some of us would like to see that change. To lump something like 'Aquire The Fire' into something like 'Jesus Camp' is unfair.

[Good Old Neon]

How does killing the child make the experience less horrific?

 

Because in the vast majority of cases

[EL the Famous]

rather, a simple clump of cells. Your use of the word child is disingenuous and misleading.

 

I think, AGAIN, you are determining your personal definition or view of something as fact that needs to be adhered to and embraced by everybody.

 

We considered our sons 'children' the minute we found out they were there.

[ikol]

These two statements, when taken together seem, to me, to make a pretty solid case for why abortion should remain a legal choice.

 

I've already addressed the 1st statement, and the 2nd assumes that the only argument against abortion is religious in nature, and I haven't used faith in my reasoning. In fact, my last argument assumed that death was a permanent cessation of existence.

 

Although, and if this sounds confrontational I apologize, but, I find it odd that a self described libertarian leaning person would allow the government to enter into a woman's womb

[ikol]

Because in the vast majority of cases

[Beltmann]

Because in the vast majority of cases

[Good Old Neon]

Your use of the phrase "clump of cells" is disinginuous and misleading. The vast majority of clumps of cells do not grow into people.

 

Potential people - until then - a clump of cells.

 

Can my wife and I claim our frozen, fertilized embryos as dependents?

 

Is it murder to dispose of fertilized embryos?

[EL the Famous]

Potential people - until then - a clump of cells.

 

you might want to take a look at the post above that one.

[bjorn_skurj]

Sorry, Nat. I still stand by my belief that forcing a woman to have a child she does not want to have is an unacceptable infringement of human rights, and the rights of an already-born person trump those of one who hasn't been born yet.

[Atticus]

This ought to do it.

 

http://www.bushlies.net/index.html

 

thanks, I'll check that out. Looks like someone put a lot of hours into it.

 

Regardless of the amount of anger and resentment I've built up over recent years against Bush and his administration, I still have trouble believing that he truly intended the consequences that have ensued. I imagine Bush listening to advisers who sold him a story that we could sail into Iraq and set up democracy like Starbucks and change the landscape of the middle east (with no regard to history or the real situation on the ground) and he got excited much in the same way as my parents' golden retriever gets excited when we let him go fishing with us. Maybe he and Cheney really are the evil monsters that many on this board make them out to be. Maybe I'm just the one who has trouble believing that someone would be that intentionally cruel. I tend to think they are just very seriously misguided as to the role this country should play in the world.

 

As to the abortion wrestling match that has ensued in here, I've not heard a single person in my life tell me that he or she is PRO-abortion--in the sense of thinking it's just a fantastic idea all around. And I think there are people of faith at all ends of the spectrum. Some blindly believe anything a minister or family member tells them, some spend years searching their souls/testing faith, reading about and discussing issues and take same as they come.

 

To automatically dismiss all of the feelings, opinions and beliefs of someone who opposes abortion on some ethical/religious basis is about as silly as a religious person doing the same to a pro-choice advocate who genuinely cares about the rights of women, especially those who may not be educated or have access to means or $$ to know that there are choices available. I think there are genuinely good and caring people on both sides of the issue.

 

If the trolls stepped out of the kitchen more often, perhaps the various views could find enough middle ground to allow our legislators to come up with some sensible legislation that honors the concerns of women while also protecting their rights, rather than relying on our high courts to continue to stretch the ridiculous caselaw that currently governs the subject...

[EL the Famous]

Can my wife and I claim our frozen, fertilized embryos as dependents?

 

Is it murder to dispose of fertilized embryos?

 

so, life begins when one can be claimed on a tax form...poetic.

 

legally, it isn't murder...but on a grander scale, only the parents of said embryo can determine that.

[bjorn_skurj]

I believe in compromise, but I'm not sure one can be found on this matter. I also think that it's an issue that no MAN should really have a say on, as we do not have uteri. OUR choice is whether we put a condom on. After ejaculation, our point of view is substantially less important.

[ikol]

Potential people - until then - a clump of cells.

 

Says the meat popsicle.

[Good Old Neon]

so, life begins when one can be claimed on a tax form...poetic.

 

legally, it isn't murder...but on a grander scale, only the parents of said embryo can determine that.

 

And only the person considering abortion can consider what it means to them

[the carlos]

I notice that one guy is avoiding Beltmann's post.

[EL the Famous]

I was using that as an example of how ridiculous it is to claim that a fertilized egg is equivalent to a living breathing person who walks the earth, draws air and dreams of the future.

 

Dude, again, that is YOUR opinion and to cast any viewpoint that differs as ridiculous is pompous...which I forgot from your infomercial for Adbusters, is your thing.

[Good Old Neon]

Your use of the phrase "clump of cells" is disinginuous and misleading. The vast majority of clumps of cells do not grow into people.

 

Peter Singer:

 

"Scientists have shown, in many different species, including monkeys, that it is possible to clone an animal by taking the nucleus of an ordinary cell, and implanting it in an egg from which the nucleus has been removed.

 

There is no biological reason to suppose that this would not work for human beings. This means that billions of our cells have the potential to become an actual person.

 

Yet no one thinks that we have an obligation to "save" all these cells and turn them into people."

[EL the Famous]

I notice that one guy is avoiding Beltmann's post.

 

that is what he does and it's because he's too busy to read/respond to each and every post...but he'll at least say he'll go back and respond.

[Good Old Neon]

Dude, again, that is YOUR opinion and to cast any viewpoint that differs as ridiculous is pompous...which I forgot from your infomercial for Adbusters, is your thing.

 

 

Well then I ask

[Good Old Neon]

that is what he does and it's because he's too busy to read/respond to each and every post...but he'll at least say he'll go back and respond.

 

You're exactly right - time to make dinner.

 

I'll respond tomorrow - now, I ask that you go back and respond to each and every point I have attempted to make - for the sake of fairness.

 

If I'm not mistaken - Beltmann's question was offered up for discussion by all - why must I answer each and every post?