China Gets It Right, But Hurts America

[ZenLunatic]

November 12, 2008

 

China Gets It Right, But Hurts America

by John Browne

 

 

The announcement of a massive stimulus package of almost $600 billion shows that China means business not just in reviving, but also in rejuvenating its economy.

 

As both America and China confront the prospect of a global depression, both countries have chosen to fend off potential unrest with liberal government spending. But the Chinese move is bolder and more likely to succeed.

 

The most remarkable aspect of the Chinese stimulus plan is its enormous size. Despite the massive publicity surrounding its formidable growth rate, the Chinese economy is still

[LouieB]

Fuckin' Commies....

 

LouieB

[Sir Stewart]

Why is Egg Foo Yung so good? It should be disgusting - but it's great!

[LouieB]

Why is Egg Foo Yung so good? It should be disgusting - but it's great!

Fuckin commies.....

 

LouieB

[ZenLunatic]

Fuckin' Commies....

 

LouieB

 

 

We are the fuckin idiots. Our country is going down in flames and they are making the smart move. Our leaders are the worst businessmen because we are cocky.

[Sir Stewart]

"It's the smart move. China was always the smart one."

[ZenLunatic]

The world no longer revloves around America. We will suffer. Depression is just getting started.

[Good Old Neon]

The world no longer revloves around America. We will suffer. Depression is just getting started.

 

That sort of reads like a really foreboding haiku.

[mfwahl]

We are the fuckin idiots. Our country is going down in flames and they are making the smart move. Our leaders are the worst businessmen because we are cocky.

I thought you were against a bailout, no?

[bjorn_skurj]

America feh

In debt up to our forehead

Somewhere, Mao laughing

[MattZ]

I thought you were against a bailout, no?

 

What he said

[EL the Famous]

I thought you were against a bailout, no?

 

'zen lunacy'

[Duck-Billed Catechist]

I think he prefers China's stimulus package because, rather than bailing out failing business to increase credit flow and consumer spending, they are spending the money on building infrastructure.

[ZenLunatic]

I thought you were against a bailout, no?

 

YES, bailout for USA is wrong.

 

China is creating a stimulis and they can do it because they have trillion of US treasuries. They have money to spend on themselves. Their country is struggling and they are using the money to stimulate the economy. Therefore, less money for us, because thats China is one of our biggest lenders. Thats who we count on to fund our stimulis and bailouts. They are spending our dollars that they saved up over the years to build their country. Not only do we have less money coming to us, our treasuries will probably on sale from China making it harder for sell ours.

 

We are broke, we need lenders, we need other countries to finance us. Else we print and destory our dollar. We just keep spending to keep ourselves alive but it will come to an end.

[MattZ]

I think he prefers China's stimulus package because, rather than bailing out failing business to increase credit flow and consumer spending, they are spending the money on building infrastructure.

 

I am not sure there's that much of a difference. If the plan works, of course.

[MattZ]

YES, bailout for USA is wrong.

 

China is creating a stimulis and they can do it because they have trillion of US treasuries. They have money to spend on themselves. Their country is struggling and they are using the money to stimulate the economy. Therefore, less money for us, because thats China is one of our biggest lenders. Thats who we count on to fund our stimulis and bailouts. They are spending our dollars that they saved up over the years to build their country. Not only do we have less money coming to us, our treasuries will probably on sale from China making it harder for sell ours.

 

We are broke, we need lenders, we need other countries to finance us. Else we print and destory our dollar. We just keep spending to keep ourselves alive but it will come to an end.

 

ZenL - if we were broke, our dollar would be worth nothing, and China would be broke too. Our dollars are worth something. Quite a bit, in fact. So much so that everyone in the world buys them as the safest currency in the world. How can China be spending our dollars to build up their country (and you applaud it) while you simultaneously argue that our dollars aren't worth anything? Who are they selling our dollars to?

[ZenLunatic]

I think he prefers China's stimulus package because, rather than bailing out failing business to increase credit flow and consumer spending, they are spending the money on building infrastructure.

 

More than that, China isnt broke like us. They have money. It's there way of trying to increase domestic demand so they dont have to rely on our consuming country. Investing in themselves instead of us. Their way of breaking away from the dollar and not letting us drag them down with us.

 

We are going down, how many countries do we bring down with us is up to the other countries themselves.

[MattZ]

More than that, China isnt broke like us. They have money. It's there way of trying to increase domestic demand so they dont have to rely on our consuming country. Investing in themselves instead of us. Their way of breaking away from the dollar and not letting us drag them down with us.

 

We are going down, how many countries do we bring down with us is up to the other countries themselves.

 

You are a trip, ZenL. And you'd propose that we tank the entire economy by refusing financial bailouts, force unemployment to skyrocket, terminate health insurance for loyal employees, etc, so that hopefully, maybe, just maybe, one day down the road we can be stronger than China? Even though the article you quoted said we are already 5x bigger than the Chinese economy? And China has almost 2x as many people as we do.

[MattZ]

It's there way of trying to increase domestic demand so they dont have to rely on our consuming country. Investing in themselves instead of us.

 

Getting the credit markets to flow again is doing exactly the same thing. There is nothing inherently evil about credit. Over-indebtedness, sure. But no one buys a house without a loan. No one starts a business without a loan. No one can go to college without a loan. Are you opposed to this too?

[ZenLunatic]

ZenL - if we were broke, our dollar would be worth nothing, and China would be broke too. Our dollars are worth something. Quite a bit, in fact. So much so that everyone in the world buys them as the safest currency in the world. How can China be spending our dollars to build up their country (and you applaud it) while you simultaneously argue that our dollars aren't worth anything? Who are they selling our dollars to?

 

 

We are broke because our credit market just broke. We have like a 10 trillion national debt, problems with SS, and whatever else. There is a $700billion bailout on top of whatever else we are trying to fix.

 

The dollar still has value now, but my point is that it will wont if we keep going on this path. When you print more money, it devalues whatever is out there and thats where we are headed, to massive printing. The value in the dollar right now is not from sound fundalmentals. It is from the fear of dropping equities. People are cashing in. Its a temporary move before the bottom falls out.

 

This is the perfect time for them to sell our dollars to whoever will buy them because like you said, people are still buying it.

[ZenLunatic]

You are a trip, ZenL. And you'd propose that we tank the entire economy by refusing financial bailouts, force unemployment to skyrocket, terminate health insurance for loyal employees, etc, so that hopefully, maybe, just maybe, one day down the road we can be stronger than China? Even though the article you quoted said we are already 5x bigger than the Chinese economy? And China has almost 2x as many people as we do.

 

 

Im not trying to compete with China. At this point we are still the strongest nation, but we are crumbling and China is growing.

[MattZ]

Im not trying to compete with China. At this point we are still the strongest nation, but we are crumbling and China is growing.

 

Sure, but you are all over the place. You are advocating for a US policy that would ensure that this country crumbles. And will force China to sell its treasuries.

 

And I think you vastly overstate the amount of crumbling that we need to suffer through while China continues growing for it even to get close. And it ignores the fact that China's growth has slowed as our economy has slowed. So, it begs the question -- can an emerging market like China even grow without the US? China makes crap that they sell to the US. If the US can't buy it, who will?

 

The US bailout is as much an investment in "infrastructure" as China's bailout. I am as worried about the future of this country as anyone, but come on, ZenL. Take a deep breath.

[ZenLunatic]

Getting the credit markets to flow again is doing exactly the same thing. There is nothing inherently evil about credit. Over-indebtedness, sure. But no one buys a house without a loan. No one starts a business without a loan. No one can go to college without a loan. Are you opposed to this too?

 

 

Thats the small picture. Of course we need credit, but we have to take the signs. If companies have come back and back for more money, maybe they arent good business and need to die. Maybe if people cant afford to go to college or live in houses, maybe the price of houses and college needs to come down to a level people can afford. I'm just saying let it happen. Credit is needed, but you cant just look at it that simply. You have to look at what got us here and what the market is saying. We cant keep minipulating the market so we keep prospering.

[cryptique]

And China has almost 2x as many people as we do.

They have over four times as many people as we do.

[MattZ]

They have over four times as many people as we do.

 

Yeah that too.