Now I remember why I was an independent all those years.

[kidsmoke]

First off, Wow. Too much that's dismaying there to even shake a stick at. Even a very large branchy stick. I have to admit, "Waterboard congress!" cracked me up.

 

Uh, Sambo? Good lord. I'm re-reading "Heart of Darkness" right now...we really haven't come quite as far as we'd like to think, have we? Still so much racism.

 

And this:

 

'John Ratzenberger, a.k.a Cliff Clavin from "Cheers,"'

 

The new GOP spokesperson?

[Edie]

From the AP today:

 

If a government plan is part of the deal, "as a matter of conscience, I will not allow this bill to come to a final vote," said Sen. Joe Lieberman, the Connecticut independent whose vote Democrats need to overcome GOP filibusters.

 

Not to besmirch Mr. Lieberman's conscience, but United Healthcare and Aetna, just to name a few, are located in CT. Coincidence? Doubtful.

[mountain bed]

Boehner, for one, declared that the health care bill is the "greatest threat to freedom that I have seen."

 

Boehner rocks a mean spray on tan. He puts a pumkin to shame.

Boehner is an idiot. How he got his present position just amazes me.

 

At Michele Bachman's "press conference" on the Capitol steps the other day Boehner pulled a copy of the Constitution from his pocket and declared that he 'stands with the Founding Fathers who wrote this great document". He then began quoting the Declaration Of Independence, evidently forgetting that it WAS NOT the Constitution.

 

God, he is a tool of the worst kind.

[Griddles]

I tend to stay away from these political threads and discussions in general because most of the time I do not think they change anyones mind. (I am a politics minor so explain that one.) Anyway, since the health care bill just passed the house I have one question. It requires people to have health insurance, that is what I got from the article on politico. So If i don't have health insurance do I get a ticket, or go to jail, just like with required car insurance? Or what is the punishment for individuals who choose not to have health insurance? I say choose assuming that people who cannot afford it now will enroll in the government plan, and many people's jobs will have plans for them. I am wondering about people who make a living for themselves at a small business whose payroll does not meet the minimum required to have a plan, but just do not want to spend money on insurance.

[kidsmoke]

Boehner is an idiot. How he got his present position just amazes me.

 

At Michele Bachman's "press conference" on the Capitol steps the other day Boehner pulled a copy of the Constitution from his pocket and declared that he 'stands with the Founding Fathers who wrote this great document". He then began quoting the Declaration Of Independence, evidently forgetting that it WAS NOT the Constitution.

 

God, he is a tool of the worst kind.

 

Oh God that's funny. And really sad.

[IRememberDBoon]

I tend to stay away from these political threads and discussions in general because most of the time I do not think they change anyones mind. (I am a politics minor so explain that one.) Anyway, since the health care bill just passed the house I have one question. It requires people to have health insurance, that is what I got from the article on politico. So If i don't have health insurance do I get a ticket, or go to jail, just like with required car insurance? Or what is the punishment for individuals who choose not to have health insurance? I say choose assuming that people who cannot afford it now will enroll in the government plan, and many people's jobs will have plans for them. I am wondering about people who make a living for themselves at a small business whose payroll does not meet the minimum required to have a plan, but just do not want to spend money on insurance.

 

 

Death by Hanging

[MattZ]

I tend to stay away from these political threads and discussions in general because most of the time I do not think they change anyones mind. (I am a politics minor so explain that one.) Anyway, since the health care bill just passed the house I have one question. It requires people to have health insurance, that is what I got from the article on politico. So If i don't have health insurance do I get a ticket, or go to jail, just like with required car insurance? Or what is the punishment for individuals who choose not to have health insurance? I say choose assuming that people who cannot afford it now will enroll in the government plan, and many people's jobs will have plans for them. I am wondering about people who make a living for themselves at a small business whose payroll does not meet the minimum required to have a plan, but just do not want to spend money on insurance.

 

Do you also stay away from newspapers, news programs, and news magazines?

[Guest Speed Racer]

Do you also stay away from newspapers, news programs, and news magazines?

 

Eh, to be fair, it's pretty different. The items you list are intended to be monologues - soliloquies, in some cases - and it's just not good for some people's blood pressure to engage in these threads when they know there will be no resolution. I make myself stay away from comments sections on websites regarding certain topics (bicyclists and traffic, for instance) because I know I'll want to throttle someone if I engage. Comments sections tend to have legions of trolls, and they just rile me up all sorts of ugly. Different people have different thresholds.

[bjorn_skurj]

Or what is the punishment for individuals who choose not to have health insurance? I say choose assuming that people who cannot afford it now will enroll in the government plan, and many people's jobs will have plans for them. I am wondering about people who make a living for themselves at a small business whose payroll does not meet the minimum required to have a plan, but just do not want to spend money on insurance.

No punishment, but when you get sick, you have to either heal yourself or crawl off and die and not strain the system with having to spend money on you on stuff that would have been cheaper to deal with had you done something about it beforehand. Thanks!

[Guest Speed Racer]

I am wondering about people who make a living for themselves at a small business whose payroll does not meet the minimum required to have a plan, but just do not want to spend money on insurance.

 

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to start considering health care coverage a necessary cost to starting a small business. You're either bringing in enough to afford to give out health care coverage for all employees, or your employees are making a sum small enough that they qualify for government health care.

 

I understand that there are already few enough incentives for entrepreneurship to begin with (I do work at a small business), but health care coverage really does need to be a priority.

[MattZ]

Eh, to be fair, it's pretty different. The items you list are intended to be monologues - soliloquies, in some cases - and it's just not good for some people's blood pressure to engage in these threads when they know there will be no resolution. I make myself stay away from comments sections on websites regarding certain topics (bicyclists and traffic, for instance) because I know I'll want to throttle someone if I engage. Comments sections tend to have legions of trolls, and they just rile me up all sorts of ugly. Different people have different thresholds.

 

You missed my point. The guy asked a question that he could have learned by picking up any newspaper or any news program. The answer to his question is everywhere.

 

Trust me, I completely understand why someone would avoid these threads.

[Guest Speed Racer]

You missed my point. The guy asked a question that he could have learned by picking up any newspaper or any news program. The answer to his question is everywhere.

 

Trust me, I completely understand why someone would avoid these threads.

 

I did! The bold threw me off.

[futureage1]

Can people admit they were duped by Obama yet? This was no govt. takeover of healthcare. It was a big Christmas present for the insurance companies. Let the obscene profits on middle class America's ill health begin! My prediction: in a nail biter the Senate passes the Bill since it was already written by the insurance companies and they WANT the bill to pass. This was all political theater. Anything to distract from the pillaging of the country and a real unemployment rate of 17.5%. Now it is on to cutting Social Security, you won't need it at that nifty McDonalds or Wal Mart job waiting for you once they have outsourced all the white collar jobs too. Maybe you could get real lucky and land a job with the insurance companies denying your fellow citizens healthcare and boosting profits. When this passes you can bet they will be hiring! Again, congratulations to all the misinformed public showing up to health care debates armed. You really made a difference! Enjoy your hiked premiums and rationed care through cost!

 

Why I Voted NO

 

by Dennis Kucinich

 

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/11/08-0

 

We have been led to believe that we must make our health care choices only within the current structure of a predatory, for-profit insurance system which makes money not providing health care. We cannot fault the insurance companies for being what they are. But we can fault legislation in which the government incentivizes the perpetuation, indeed the strengthening, of the for-profit health insurance industry, the very source of the problem. When health insurance companies deny care or raise premiums, co-pays and deductibles they are simply trying to make a profit. That is our system.

 

Clearly, the insurance companies are the problem, not the solution. They are driving up the cost of health care. Because their massive bureaucracy avoids paying bills so effectively, they force hospitals and doctors to hire their own bureaucracy to fight the insurance companies to avoid getting stuck with an unfair share of the bills. The result is that since 1970, the number of physicians has increased by less than 200% while the number of administrators has increased by 3000%. It is no wonder that 31 cents of every health care dollar goes to administrative costs, not toward providing care. Even those with insurance are at risk. The single biggest cause of bankruptcies in the U.S. is health insurance policies that do not cover you when you get sick.

 

But instead of working toward the elimination of for-profit insurance, H.R. 3962 would put the government in the role of accelerating the privatization of health care. In H.R. 3962, the government is requiring at least 21 million Americans to buy private health insurance from the very industry that causes costs to be so high, which will result in at least $70 billion in new annual revenue, much of which is coming from taxpayers. This inevitably will lead to even more costs, more subsidies, and higher profits for insurance companies - a bailout under a blue cross.

 

This health care bill continues the redistribution of wealth to Wall Street at the expense of America's manufacturing and service economies which suffer from costs other countries do not have to bear, especially the cost of health care. America continues to stand out among all industrialized nations for its privatized health care system. As a result, we are less competitive in steel, automotive, aerospace and shipping while other countries subsidize their exports in these areas through socializing the cost of health care.

 

Notwithstanding the fate of H.R. 3962, America will someday come to recognize the broad social and economic benefits of a not-for-profit, single-payer health care system, which is good for the American people and good for America's businesses, with of course the notable exceptions being insurance and pharmaceuticals.

[Griddles]

Do you also stay away from newspapers, news programs, and news magazines?

 

Yes. I do not have tv or money to subscribe to a newspaper or magazines. I went the Internet and this is where I came. Most places do not have a straight answer, and instead have either dire warnings, or claims of utopia.

 

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to start considering health care coverage a necessary cost to starting a small business. You're either bringing in enough to afford to give out health care coverage for all employees, or your employees are making a sum small enough that they qualify for government health care.

 

I understand that there are already few enough incentives for entrepreneurship to begin with (I do work at a small business), but health care coverage really does need to be a priority.

 

Some people do consider it a bad thing to consider health coverage as a necessary cost. Which is kind of the whole debate, right?

[bjorn_skurj]

If you don't consider health care a necessary cost, are you not condemning sick broke people to some sort of awful fate? Once you admit you are going to treat anyone who needs it, or at least seeks it, the philosophical question is done, in my opinion, and the next step is to figure out how to do it. THAT'S the whole debate, as I see it.

[kidsmoke]

I think that's well put, Dan.

[mountain bed]

If you don't consider health care a necessary cost, are you not condemning sick broke people to some sort of awful fate? Once you admit you are going to treat anyone who needs it, or at least seeks it, the philosophical question is done, in my opinion, and the next step is to figure out how to do it. THAT'S the whole debate, as I see it.

Indeed.

[MattZ]

Yes. I do not have tv or money to subscribe to a newspaper or magazines. I went the Internet and this is where I came. Most places do not have a straight answer, and instead have either dire warnings, or claims of utopia.

 

Some people do consider it a bad thing to consider health coverage as a necessary cost. Which is kind of the whole debate, right?

 

Sure, you went to the internet, but what makes you think you are going to get a straight answer here? Sorry if I came off snarky. Just seems that if this is an issue you are interested in, a little bit of work will pay off. You can read newspapers online, too.

 

As for the debate, Dan is on the money. The debate about health coverage has already been settled. You walk into an emergency room without insurance and you will be cared for. End of story. This country already has universal health care. The question is do we continue to pay for it by incentivizing people to wait until the last minute and then go to the emergency room? Or do we try to come up with a way to incentivize people to see a doctor before their illness turns into full blown shitshow? This entire debate is really mindboggling to me.

[LouieB]

Congress is not made up of Dennis Kuciniches. It is made up of folks who take contributions from health insurance companies. No one should be surprised by any of this, not even Dennis.

 

We live in a schizo country. One the one hand we have people saying we are going socialist on the other we have those who say it is capitalist plot. It can't be both.

 

LouieB

[Good Old Neon]

Can people admit they were duped by Obama yet?

 

Should we settle our bet with dollars or Ameros®?

[Atticus]

I'm so confused. are the democrats still spineless or not?

[bjorn_skurj]

It occurred to me the other day when I got a Canadian quarter in my change from the store that if we had Ameros, that problem would go away. And thanks to everybody for the compliments!

[Guest Jules]

If you don't consider health care a necessary cost, are you not condemning sick broke people to some sort of awful fate? Once you admit you are going to treat anyone who needs it, or at least seeks it, the philosophical question is done, in my opinion, and the next step is to figure out how to do it. THAT'S the whole debate, as I see it.

True, but the specific debate last page was whether or not health care is "a necessary cost to starting a small business", wasn't it? Something legitimately debatable, in my opinion.

[bjorn_skurj]

True, but the specific debate last page was whether or not health care is "a necessary cost to starting a small business", wasn't it? Something legitimately debatable, in my opinion.

If that small business entails hiring human beings on a full-time basis, my answer would be yes.

[Guest Speed Racer]

True, but the specific debate last page was whether or not health care is "a necessary cost to starting a small business", wasn't it? Something legitimately debatable, in my opinion.

 

If you can't afford to pay your workers a living wage AND provide them with health care, then they still aren't being paid a living wage, once you deduct either the cost of acquiring personal health care or the cost of the consequences of not having personal health care.

 

Two things employees absolutely need as human beings is food and medical care. Unless you can afford to provide them both, or pay them enough to acquire both on their own, you're not really providing for them.