The New Atheists

[Winston Legthigh]

So much for free will - capitulate or burn for all eternity.

Sounds like somethign an Iraqi citizen might think to himself.

[Good Old Neon]

 

All of us belong to at least one organization or institution that has practices we disagree with, some of which might be reprehensible, but that doesn't compel us to leave those organizations, because it's far more complicated than "they do 'x' wrong so I'm outsies."

 

 

True, but this isn’t just some other issue people simply disagree upon, this is a religious organization sanctioning murder, let's say that again, murder - there are very few, if any “respectable” organizations that sanction such punishment on the grounds of sexual orientation. It is unconscionable and indefensible. If any other organization made such a claim, they would ostracized appropriately, but this is a religious organization, so criticism is kept to a minimum - we must remain respectful, I call holy fucking bullshit.

[Guest Speed Racer]

But what are the other extenuating circumstances in Uganda that make belonging to that particular organization a good choice? Are these people simply believers, or is there something a little more complicated that makes this particular brand of Christianity in this particular region more violent, or that makes these particular members less likely to leave this organization?

 

I'm not saying that this isn't absolutely horrible - you know I think so - but why aren't these people opposing this? There's more to it than being charmed by Christianity's cool factor, in my opinion.

[Moss]

But what are the other extenuating circumstances in Uganda that make belonging to that particular organization a good choice? Are these people simply believers, or is there something a little more complicated that makes this particular brand of Christianity in this particular region more violent, or that makes these particular members less likely to leave this organization?

 

I'm not saying that this isn't absolutely horrible - you know I think so - but why aren't these people opposing this? There's more to it than being charmed by Christianity's cool factor, in my opinion.

 

It sounds like there is a sense that people in these religions disagree with discrimination but are putting up with it because they don't want to leave? Certainly that's true in some cases but I think in most cases they are perfectly fine with it because they have been told and are being told every other Sunday that homosexuality is wrong.

[Good Old Neon]

But what are the other extenuating circumstances in Uganda that make belonging to that particular organization a good choice? Are these people simply believers, or is there something a little more complicated that makes this particular brand of Christianity in this particular region more violent, or that makes these particular members less likely to leave this organization?

 

I'm not saying that this isn't absolutely horrible - you know I think so - but why aren't these people opposing this? There's more to it than being charmed by Christianity's cool factor, in my opinion.

 

Honestly, I don’t know - but given its problems, I cannot imagine who someone chooses to sleep with ranks high on the list of priorities that need to be addressed - but therein lies the problem with religion, it doesn’t need an excuse, words from an ancient work of fiction is reason enough.

[Guest Speed Racer]

But, as someone pointed out earlier, they hear the same things about adultery and any other number of sins - but not every week.

 

Why is it that they emphasize homosexuality more frequently than other sins? These people are clearly afraid of it than any other transgression, in the face of just as many sins with an equal holy punishment. Probably because more people are exempt from this particular horrible sin, and I think that has a lot more to do with elements of the human condition that are universal, more than it does with the church.

[Guest Speed Racer]

To me it's not that much different from the Communist witch hunts of the 50's. Few people actually were, and those people who were, were rarely a threat, but since more people weren't Communist than were, and the burden of proof was so small (much like with homosexuality), it was a pretty easy hunt. The U.S. could have expanded its hunt for much more viable threats, but this was an easy target that was good for morale. Thank god our country is set up in such a way as to not legislate summarily executing its flavor of the week.

[Good Old Neon]

But, as someone pointed out earlier, they hear the same things about adultery and any other number of sins - but not every week.

 

Why is it that they emphasize homosexuality more frequently than other sins? These people are clearly afraid of it than any other transgression, in the face of just as many sins with an equal holy punishment. Probably because more people are exempt from this particular horrible sin, and I think that has a lot more to do with elements of the human condition that are universal, more than it does with the church.

 

I can admit that religion often plays a positive role in people's lives and the culture at large, but you almost seem completely incapable of admitting that, yes, sometimes horrible things are done in the name of religion. Why is that so difficult to see? You're every bit as stubborn as I am.

 

From the Times Online:

 

'Even more shocking, acts of 'aggravated homosexuality' will earn the death penalty. Now it is alleged that those moral paragons who brought us prostitution for Jesus not only support the bill, but are the authors of the measure. David Bahati, the Ugandan MP who introduced the legislation, is reported to be a member of The Family, The Children of God, The Family International, The Fellowship or whatever they happen to be calling themselves this week. For our purposes, let’s just call them The Cult. According to author Jeff Sharlet, who lived among them 7 years ago, The Cult has also funneled millions of dollars into Uganda, and prominent Cult members, such as U.S. Senator James Inhofe, have actively recruited leadership in that nation. To anyone familiar with The Cult’s beliefs, their involvement in the matter will hardly come as a surprise. According to this radical brand of Christianity, even THINKING of homosexual acts is just plain wrong... unless you’re thinking of sex with Jesus, and you pretend you’re female. If you're a woman who enjoys a bit of girl-on-girl, that's also okay, so long as you don’t practice lesbian sex to the total exclusion of penis.'

[Guest Speed Racer]

I can admit that religion often plays a positive role in people's lives and the culture at large, but you almost seem completely incapable of admitting that, yes, sometimes horrible things are done in the name of religion. Why is that so difficult to see? You're every bit as stubborn as I am.

 

Oh goodness, terrible things happen in the name of religion. I have no problem admitting that at all, and I think I have a number of times in this thread. I just don't think that religion is the fundamental cause of those horrible things. I think it greases the wheels, and like I said yesterday, I think that something else would grease those wheels if not for religion. As I said many, many, many pages ago, assholes will be assholes with or without religion making them that way.

 

Edit: In fact, as early as Page 2 of this thread I admit that, yes, sometimes horrible things are done in the name of religion.

 

all religions and spiritual practices can inflict upon already suspect people dispositions ranging from unbearable pushiness to intolerance to extremist inclinations.

 

Just sayin'.

[Good Old Neon]

Oh goodness, terrible things happen in the name of religion. I have no problem admitting that at all, and I think I have a number of times in this thread. I just don't think that religion is the fundamental cause of those horrible things. I think it greases the wheels, and like I said yesterday, I think that something else would grease those wheels if not for religion. As I said many, many, many pages ago, assholes will be assholes with or without religion making them that way.

 

Edit: In fact, as early as Page 2 of this thread I admit that, yes, sometimes horrible things are done in the name of religion.

 

 

 

Just sayin'.

 

In case you missed it, from the Times Online:

 

'Even more shocking, acts of 'aggravated homosexuality' will earn the death penalty. Now it is alleged that those moral paragons who brought us prostitution for Jesus not only support the bill, but are the authors of the measure. David Bahati, the Ugandan MP who introduced the legislation, is reported to be a member of The Family, The Children of God, The Family International, The Fellowship or whatever they happen to be calling themselves this week. For our purposes, let’s just call them The Cult. According to author Jeff Sharlet, who lived among them 7 years ago, The Cult has also funneled millions of dollars into Uganda, and prominent Cult members, such as U.S. Senator James Inhofe, have actively recruited leadership in that nation. To anyone familiar with The Cult’s beliefs, their involvement in the matter will hardly come as a surprise. According to this radical brand of Christianity, even THINKING of homosexual acts is just plain wrong... unless you’re thinking of sex with Jesus, and you pretend you’re female. If you're a woman who enjoys a bit of girl-on-girl, that's also okay, so long as you don’t practice lesbian sex to the total exclusion of penis.'

[Guest Speed Racer]

In case you missed it, from the Times Online:

 

Because, clearly, I am blind. If there is a point you wish to draw from that excerpt, please do so in your own words.

[Good Old Neon]

Because, clearly, I am blind. If there is a point you wish to draw from that excerpt, please do so in your own words.

 

I wasn’t suggesting you are blind, I just slipped it in after (or so I think) you responded to the post in which I slipped it.

 

You were seeking clarification on why the church has taken such a hard line approach, and I went looking, and posted what I found. I could have broke it down in my own words, but when I do that, folks often accuse me of simply stating my opinion, when in fact, I’ve sort of condensed info from other sources.

[Guest Speed Racer]

You were seeking clarification on why the church has taken such a hard line approach, and I went looking, and posted what I found. I could have broke it down in my own words, but when I do that, folks often accuse me of simply stating my opinion, when in fact, I’ve sort of condensed info from other sources.

 

Sorry, I interpreted the re-posting as an assertion that I did not in fact admit on page 2 that Christians do bad things - I apologize for the snarkiness.

 

We throw so many words around in this thread (religion, church, etc.) that I think it's important to distinguish that this is only this particular church and these particular crazies carrying out these particular heinous measures. I just find it fascinating that, among denominations, different churches can interpret the Pope's crazy-ass statement so many different ways, to the point where some go so far as to order executions of homosexuals. Even with all the right ingredients, it takes a certain climate for some poisons to culture.

[Good Old Neon]

Sorry, I interpreted the re-posting as an assertion that I did not in fact admit on page 2 that Christians do bad things - I apologize for the snarkiness.

 

We throw so many words around in this thread (religion, church, etc.) that I think it's important to distinguish that this is only this particular church and these particular crazies carrying out these particular heinous measures. I just find it fascinating that, among denominations, different churches can interpret the Pope's crazy-ass statement so many different ways, to the point where some go so far as to order executions of homosexuals. Even with all the right ingredients, it takes a certain climate for some poisons to culture.

 

No apology needed kiddo, you're one of my favorites on this board - not that I'd allow that to influence my attitude

 

Anyhow, I think we've probably taken this about as far as it can go. For what it's worth, this article might shed some light on this group of crazies.

 

http://www.examiner.com/x-4107-International-LGBT-Issues-Examiner~y2009m11d29-US-Congressmen-support-Uganda-AntiHomosexuality-Death-Penalty-Law-in-the-name-of-Jesus

 

Edit - after reading this, some senators, along with the White House, are going to be receiving some pretty fucking angry letters for Christmas.

[Atticus]

"aggravated homosexuality"

 

is that being attracted to a member of the same sex with a gun? or just cranky gayness?

[Winston Legthigh]

"aggravated homosexuality"

 

is that being attracted to a member of the same sex with a gun? or just cranky gayness?

Would morning wood be an attendant circumstance?

[Good Old Neon]

If you're interested in reading more about this group, you might want to check out the following book - from Amazon:

 

The Family: The Secret Fundamentalism at the Heart of American Power

 

Checking in on a friend's brother at Ivenwald, a Washington-based fundamentalist group living communally in Arlington, Va., religion and journalism scholar Sharlet finds a sect whose members refer to Manhattan's Ground Zero as "the ruins of secularism"; intrigued, Sharlet accepts on a whim an invitation to stay at Ivenwald. He's shocked to find himself in the stronghold of a widespread "invisible" network, organized into cells much like Ivenwald, and populated by elite, politically ambitious fundamentalists; Sharlet is present when a leader tells a dozen men living there, "You guys are here to learn how to rule the world." As it turns out, the Family was established in 1935 to oppose FDR's New Deal and the spread of trade unions; since then, it has organized well-attended weekly prayer meetings for members of Congress and annual National Prayer Breakfasts attended by every president since Eisenhower. Further, the Family's international reach ("almost impossible to overstate") has "forged relationships between the U.S. government and some of the most oppressive regimes in the world." In the years since his first encounter, Sharlet has done extensive research, and his thorough account of the Family's life and times is a chilling expose.

[Guest Speed Racer]

I love the power they give to homosexuals, and our apparent wiles - none of which it seems I have been bestowed. If it were that easy to convert someone, well, damn.

[Good Old Neon]

I love the power they give to homosexuals, and our apparent wiles - none of which it seems I have been bestowed. If it were that easy to convert someone, well, damn.

 

Seriously, have you gays ever considered donating some of that power to help solve the coming energy crisis?

[Guest Speed Racer]

Seriously, have you gays ever considered donating some of that power to help solve the coming energy crisis?

 

Fuck that. As soon as I get my wiles I'm booking a non-stop flight to Mary Louise Parker.

[Good Old Neon]

Fuck that. As soon as I get my wiles I'm booking a non-stop flight to Mary Louise Parker.

 

[bjorn_skurj]

In more bad news for gays, straights, atheists, theists and decent folk in general, Creed has apparently reunited. I think there is some language relating to this in Revelation.

[Winston Legthigh]

In more bad news for gays, straights, atheists, theists and decent folk in general, Creed has apparently reunited. I think there is some language relating to this in Revelation.

I'm hoping that you got lazy and didn't want to spell out the rest of -ence Clearwater Rivival?

[ikol]

In more bad news for gays, straights, atheists, theists and decent folk in general, Creed has apparently reunited. I think there is some language relating to this in Revelation.

 

I hate to admit it, but this may actually be proof that there is no God.

[Guest Speed Racer]

I hate to admit it, but this may actually be proof that there is no God.

 

I was just about to write that here we finally have definitive, unequivocal proof that religious influence can cause crimes against humanity on a scale that literally effects millions, if not billions, of people.