46 years and nothing's changed

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

The Kitty Genovese ordeal in 1964 but a spotlight on the bystander effect. But after 46 years of handwringing by apologists, psychological navel gazing and moralizing, people are still reluctant to get involved.

 

 

NEW YORK – The homeless man lay face down, unmoving, on the sidewalk outside an apartment building, blood from knife wounds pooling underneath his body.

 

One person passed by in the early morning. Then another, and another. Video footage from a surveillance camera shows at least seven people going by, some turning their heads to look, others stopping to gawk. One even lifted the homeless man's body, exposing what appeared to be blood on the sidewalk underneath him, before walking away.

 

It wasn't until after the 31-year-old Guatemalan immigrant had been lying there for nearly an hour that emergency workers arrived, and by then, it was too late. Hugo Alfredo Tale-Yax — who police said was stabbed while intervening to help a woman being attacked — had died.

 

"I think it's horrific," said Marla Cohan, who teaches at P.S. 82, a school across the street from where Tale-Yax died. "I think people are just afraid to step in; they don't want to get involved; who knows what their reasons are?"

 

Tale-Yax was walking behind a man and a woman on 144th Street in the Jamaica section of Queens around 6 a.m. April 18 when the couple got into a fight that became physical, according to police, who pieced together what happened from surveillance footage and interviews with area residents.

 

Tale-Yax was stabbed several times when he intervened to help the woman, NYPD spokesman Paul Browne said. She and the other man fled in different directions, and Tale-Yax pursued the man before collapsing. Authorities are searching for the man and woman.

 

A 911 call of a woman screaming came in around 6 a.m., but when officers responded to the address that was given, no one was there, police said. Another call came in around 7 a.m., saying a man was lying on the street, but gave the wrong address. Finally, around 7:20 a.m., someone called 911 to report a man had possibly been stabbed at 144th Street and 88th Road.

 

Police and firefighters arrived a few minutes later to find Tale-Yax dead. Officials say they're not sure whether the man was still alive when passers-by opted not to help him.

 

Residents who regularly pass by the same stretch of sidewalk, in a working-class neighborhood of low-rise apartment buildings and fast food restaurants near a busy boulevard, were unnerved by the way Tale-Yax died.

 

"Is anybody human anymore?" asked Raechelle Groce, visiting her grandmother at a nearby building on Monday. "What's wrong with humanity?"

 

In the urban environment, it's not unusual to see people on the street, sleeping or under the influence of drugs or alcohol.

 

But even assuming the person they've just passed is drunk, instead of injured, is no reason not to notify authorities, said Seth Herman, another teacher at the school. He remembered calling an ambulance when seeing a man who appeared to be homeless on the street, with a beer bottle near by.

 

He called 911, he said, because "I felt it wasn't my job to figure out if the person was drunk or actually hurt."

 

Groce agreed.

 

"I just think that's horrible, whether you're homeless or not," she said. "He's a human being; he needs help."

[Guest Speed Racer]

people are still reluctant to get involved.

 

This is but an anecdote, you know. A terrible, horrifying tragedy, but not a statistically significant sign that "nothing's changed."

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

This is but an anecdote, you know. A terrible, horrifying tragedy, but not a statistically significant sign that "nothing's changed."

 

It's not an anecdote to Tale-Yax.

[Guest Speed Racer]

It's not an anecdote to Tale-Yax.

 

But does that mean that "nothing's changed"?

[embiggen]

I heard this story a few days ago, when it happened, and it makes me sick. maybe it's just a localized attitude in the NYC area, but I hear about crap like this happening all the time. it's horrible to think that someone would lay dying in the streets and no one would do anything about it. despicable and disgusting.

[Good Old Neon]

It might take more than 46 years to change behavior that was probably pretty much built into our software, unfortunately.

[bjorn_skurj]

I prefer to think of how New Yorkers came together for each other on 9/11, actually. Anybody ever die on a street in Dallas?

[Guest Jules]

are we talking legal or illegal immigrant?

[bjorn_skurj]

The New York Post merely ID's him an an "immigrant," and knowing how those dudes think, if he was illegal, they would have said so.

[Guest Ordinary Beehive]

I don't think this is as much as reflection on New York as it is just a reflection on human kind. The same thing could easily have happened in Chicago, and I think most people are really great in Chicago.

[Guest Jules]

What were the people supposed to do? What does "getting involved" entail? CPR?

[Guest Speed Racer]

Good thing they had surveillence cameras there; if they hadn't, imagine what might have happened to him. I really wish they'd hang some kind of "For archival purposes only" note on those kinds of cameras; they clearly aren't monitored with any regularity.

[Basil II]

Surveillance cameras are there to remind us of our foilibles.......and we pretend to be shocked...

 

 

-robert

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

I prefer to think of how New Yorkers came together for each other on 9/11, actually. Anybody ever die on a street in Dallas?

 

Yes.

 

My point is that people are disengaged and afraid and/or reluctant to get involved.

And your point is?

[caliber66]

What were the people supposed to do? What does "getting involved" entail? CPR?

Perhaps the guy who lifted him up and saw the blood could have called the police to report that there was an unconscious dude bleeding on the sidewalk?

[Guest Speed Racer]

My point is that people are disengaged and afraid and/or reluctant to get involved.

And your point is?

 

That your point is a sweeping generalization that doesn't accurately portray either the Kitty Genovese scenario (the details of which are considered to be largely overblown) or this case.

 

NOTE - Just in case we're unclear: murder is terrible, both circumstances are tragedies, but neither are benchmarks for the downfall of humanity.

 

So, what bothers me about the story you posted:

 

Guatamalen man has been lying there for an hour. The camera sees "at least" seven people. SOME of the seven people turn their heads to look. We're relying on a camera here, that only saw people walk by. How wide is the scope of the camera? Can it see only 7 feet across? 20? 30? Is it possible some of them called the police off-screen, and that the police were slow in responding?

 

What ever happened to the woman being attacked? Did she call police?

 

Let's be generous, and assume that SOME (great reporting, by the way) means 6 people looked. That's one every ten minutes, or a few people clumped together. If a few people were clumped together, their views could be obstructed. Did they think he was sleeping? In cities, I've walked past a number of people on the ground I thought were sleeping. Did I look very closely? Ensure that they were alive? No, because I'm not particularly interested in violating what little privacy people who have to sleep outside have.

 

When did the man who turned the victim's body walk by? After he had been lying there one minute, or 59? Was he the one who did call police?

 

Not only is this story an anecdotal account of a "bystander effect," it's an embarrassingly poor anecdote.

 

NOTE (once more, with feeling!) - Just in case we're unclear: murder is terrible, both circumstances are tragedies, but neither are benchmarks for the downfall of humanity.

[embiggen]

What were the people supposed to do? What does "getting involved" entail? CPR?

 

 

stopping and calling the police, making sure the police get there, talking to the guy to keep him awake so he doesn't pass out... there are many things people can do. what if it happened to you? wouldn't you want someone to stop and help you? also, he was trying to help someone else. how sad that someone couldn't do the same for him.

 

I don't think it's just happening in NYC - but NYC is a very concentrated area and people become numb to certain things and go along their busy way, sometimes knocking people over to get there; yes I have seen old women practically knocked over because some jerk's hurry is more important than anyone else. it's a shame that this poor guy died like that and all someone had to do was stop and call 911.

[Lammycat]

While it is a sad commentary and all, how many passed out drunk folks do people step over/around on a daily basis in NYC? It's not uncommon. I'm guessing (save for the guy who rolled him and saw the blood) that most of those people assumed he was just drunk. Not saying that a passed out drunk guy doesn't deserve attention, but I'm betting that police/ambulance patrol don't respond lickity-split for calls of passed out drunk folks anyway....

[Winston Legthigh]

all someone had to do was stop and call 911.

Seems like 3 people did.

[Guest Jules]

Obviously someone did call 911. I don't see what the big deal is. You assume people walked by and did nothing, but maybe they all called?

 

I declare this thread a non-thread.

[Good Old Neon]

but neither are benchmarks for the downfall of humanity.

 

That would be them liberals.

[embiggen]

Obviously someone did call 911. I don't see what the big deal is. You assume people walked by and did nothing, but maybe they all called?

 

I declare this thread a non-thread.

 

 

hello! there is video that SHOWS PEOPLE WALKING BUY AND DOING NOTHING FOR HOURS!!!!! it's on tape! it's a very big deal in my opinion. it's great that someone called 911, but they didn't call soon enough because he laid there for hours and DIED! he could have been saved.

[embiggen]

Seems like 3 people did.

 

 

they didn't wait to make sure he was ok and that someone came to pick him up. why did it take 3 hours for him to be "rescued." I don't understand why there isn't more outrage about this.

 

I've passed drunks on the street and they were obviously alive, breathing, some puke on the sidewalk AND I've called 911 before to help people. I've never passed anyone that was bleeding and didn't do anything. ugh! it's just mortifying to me.

[Guest Jules]

hello! there is video that SHOWS PEOPLE WALKING BUY AND DOING NOTHING FOR HOURS!!!!! it's on tape! it's a very big deal in my opinion. it's great that someone called 911, but they didn't call soon enough because he laid there for hours and DIED! he could have been saved.

Meh. I would have called, but I can't fault anyone for not doing so. Maybe their cell phones were dead?

[Guest Speed Racer]

hello! there is video that SHOWS PEOPLE WALKING BUY AND DOING NOTHING FOR HOURS!!!!! it's on tape! it's a very big deal in my opinion. it's great that someone called 911, but they didn't call soon enough because he laid there for hours and DIED! he could have been saved.

 

Shows people walking by for HOUR - no 'S'. Three phone calls were placed - one apparently by the woman who was attacked, immediately after he was attacked, and two by two other people. In the course of an hour.

 

Including the female victim, about 8 people walked by him (we don't know for sure, because the reporter can't count). I do not blame the five people who didn't call for thinking he was alright.

 

Once more: we don't know how far the range of the camera is. Obviously, the people who called, called off screen. Did the people who pass him walk right by him, or did they pass him on the other side of the street? "Some" - again, great reporting - people looked. Did some people look and not see he was in danger? It's quite possible that the "some" people were the other two who called 911. To the people who didn't look, how are you supposed to report something if you don't SEE it?

 

I've never passed anyone that was bleeding

 

Have you passed people you didn't know were bleeding? Have you passed people you couldn't see?