Ghost of Electricity Posted August 6, 2013 Share Posted August 6, 2013 3 more points for the NRA: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23590054 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bjorn_skurj Posted August 6, 2013 Share Posted August 6, 2013 How is the NRA specifically to blame for this? Connect some dots for me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ghost of Electricity Posted August 6, 2013 Author Share Posted August 6, 2013 it's a principal thing. you can't say that the tobacco companies are to blame for any particular case of lung cancer, but when you look across the board it is obviously responsible for some of them. similar situation with every gun death in america. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bjorn_skurj Posted August 6, 2013 Share Posted August 6, 2013 Mmm. Maybe. One could blame the NRA for retarding the progress of background checks, which maybe might have kept this obvious cra-zor from getting a gun, but probably not. America's love of guns and societal delight in killing goes far beyond and dates to way before there was even an NRA, though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hixter Posted August 6, 2013 Share Posted August 6, 2013 similar situation with every gun death in america. Not even remotely similar. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
calvino Posted August 6, 2013 Share Posted August 6, 2013 I just read the NRA opened or will be opening a museum somewhere in Midwest ---- I think they should dedicate it to President Obama - their greatest fundraiser. found the story - it will be in KC http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/03/us-usa-guns-museum-idUSBRE97207920130803 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sir Stewart Posted August 7, 2013 Share Posted August 7, 2013 The local news story of the killings is so chock-filled with nuts I can't believe I live in this fucking state:http://www.wfmz.com/news/Regional-Poconos-Coal/paul-newell-rockne-had-been-planning-shooting/-/149546/21356782/-/qnogj/-/index.html Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ghost of Electricity Posted August 7, 2013 Author Share Posted August 7, 2013 Mmm. Maybe. One could blame the NRA for retarding the progress of background checks, which maybe might have kept this obvious cra-zor from getting a gun, but probably not. America's love of guns and societal delight in killing goes far beyond and dates to way before there was even an NRA, though.So does the use of tobacco. yet we learned to hold the big tobacco companies responsible for killing us. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ghost of Electricity Posted August 7, 2013 Author Share Posted August 7, 2013 Not even remotely similar.very similar actually. Viewed as a public health issue, the tobacco companies lobby (or at least lobbied) against the common good in the same way that the NRA lobbies against the common good. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Don Draper Posted August 7, 2013 Share Posted August 7, 2013 But tobacco companies make tobacco products. The NRA doesn't make guns. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
uncool2pillow Posted August 7, 2013 Share Posted August 7, 2013 But tobacco companies make tobacco products. The NRA doesn't make guns.Oh, but their big donors do, no? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Don Draper Posted August 7, 2013 Share Posted August 7, 2013 Absolutely. But that doesn't mean that the little league team sponsored by Big Tobacco causes lung cancer.Big Tobacco's Li'l Sluggers Quote Link to post Share on other sites
uncool2pillow Posted August 7, 2013 Share Posted August 7, 2013 Fair enough. BTW, I've got an NRA sticker on one of my vehicles because it was given to us used by my in-laws. My father-in-law is a big enough supporter of theirs that out of respect to him and the gift he gave us, the sticker remains. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
caliber66 Posted August 7, 2013 Share Posted August 7, 2013 Absolutely. But that doesn't mean that the little league team sponsored by Big Tobacco causes lung cancer.Big Tobacco's Li'l Sluggers Yeah, but that little league team doesn't lobby Congress to relax tobacco laws. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Don Draper Posted August 7, 2013 Share Posted August 7, 2013 I'm not an NRA yahoo by any means, but I think it's important to draw the distinction between the group's two functions/purposes: on the one hand there's the lobbying arm (I realize I'm mixing my anatomical metaphors) and on the other hand you've got the individual members who believe in the right to gun ownership, safety classes, certification and all that. That's a distinction you just can't make with Big Tobacco. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ghost of Electricity Posted August 7, 2013 Author Share Posted August 7, 2013 But tobacco companies make tobacco products. The NRA doesn't make guns. Oh, but their big donors do, no? Absolutely. But that doesn't mean that the little league team sponsored by Big Tobacco causes lung cancer.Big Tobacco's Li'l Sluggers neither do Phillip Morriss or RJ Reynolds give their money directly to politicians. They filter it through "third party" lobbyist groups. The difference is that public focus on one issue is on the lobby group and in the other on the donors to the lobby group. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hixter Posted August 7, 2013 Share Posted August 7, 2013 the NRA lobbies against the common good.No they don't. I'd like to see the stats on gun crimes committed by NRA members. I suspect that about 99% of gun crimes are committed by people who are not NRA members. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bjorn_skurj Posted August 7, 2013 Share Posted August 7, 2013 So does the use of tobacco. yet we learned to hold the big tobacco companies responsible for killing us. I don't accept that. If you've taken up smoking since like 1970, there is no way you could not be aware of the risks. Tobacco companies make it easier for you to get hooked, sure, but to say they made you smoke is an irresponsible and erroneous abrogation of personal responsibility. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ghost of Electricity Posted August 7, 2013 Author Share Posted August 7, 2013 No they don't. I'd like to see the stats on gun crimes committed by NRA members. I suspect that about 99% of gun crimes are committed by people who are not NRA members.I didn't say that they committed any gun crimes, and I wouldn't presume to make up statistics. I said that, from a public health point of view, The NRA lobbies against the common good. They lobby in support of machines which are designed to, and do, take human lives. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ghost of Electricity Posted August 7, 2013 Author Share Posted August 7, 2013 I don't accept that. If you've taken up smoking since like 1970, there is no way you could not be aware of the risks. Tobacco companies make it easier for you to get hooked, sure, but to say they made you smoke is an irresponsible and erroneous abrogation of personal responsibility.i said nothing of the sort. Anyway, at least tobacco users are (primarily) killing themselves. Not the case with guns. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hixter Posted August 7, 2013 Share Posted August 7, 2013 I didn't say that they committed any gun crimesYou titled this thread "NRA scorecard" and said "3 points for the NRA", as if they and their members are somehow responsible for some nut shooting up a town meeting. They lobby in support of machines which are designed to, and do, take human lives.Those same machines also save lives. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ghost of Electricity Posted August 7, 2013 Author Share Posted August 7, 2013 Those same machines also save lives.this is uncomfortably similar to the argument used by Alfred Nobel when he was inventing dynamite, and during the cold war to justify the nuclear arms race. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hixter Posted August 7, 2013 Share Posted August 7, 2013 this is uncomfortably similar to the argument used by Alfred Nobel when he was inventing dynamite, and during the cold war to justify the nuclear arms race. And it's also 100% true - legally owned firearms save lives every day. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Don Draper Posted August 7, 2013 Share Posted August 7, 2013 And dynamite means we get a new Vikings stadium. So there's that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ghost of Electricity Posted August 7, 2013 Author Share Posted August 7, 2013 You titled this thread "NRA scorecard" and said "3 points for the NRA", as if they and their members are somehow responsible for some nut shooting up a town meeting. If the families of everyone killed in gun violence got together and filed a class action suit against the NRA and weapons manufacturers, they could be legally responsible for them, or at least a portion of them. Much the same way that tobacco companies are held responsible for the high rates of lung cancer and emphysema (did i spell that right?) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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