ZenLunatic

Dont think Cubs will resign Kerry Wood. Too bad, dont care too much really. Any you guys interested in having him?

Bell's Oberon is a perfect summer brew

Total nerd pint glass.

I like Bells, I usally get the brown ale but havent had it in a while.

I agree that something like health benefits is and should be contingent on both continued employment and survival of the company. You can always get a new job with insurance or buy insurance in the market if your company goes under. But retirement benefits are something different entirely. People continue to harp on the risks to social security but not many people pay attention to how underfunded pensions are. People are counting on retirement money that just won't be there. I am much more worried about that.

Social security is a gonna fail. Yeah people are counting on pensions and social security and they will be disappointed when it doesnt come because its run very poorly. Its not really secure. I think this is the reason companies are not really doing pensions anymore, its harder to rely on and maintain. These things are of the past in my opinion. 401k or IRAs makes more sense.

I think we need to stop the social security program. My advice to the young, dont count on social security to be there. Save your own and protect your wealth on your own. Dont count on social security or pensions, you could get burned.

Delerium Tremens & Newcastle

I think there is a lesson to be learned here. Your benefits comes from a company and your benefits are only good if that company is good. There just isnt anything more to it than that. Those are the rules. Learn to lose gracefully. Beware that your company can go under. Unknowing of the rules doesnt excuse anything.

It is a bad situation for the people that were promised certain benefits or money, that's why the heads of these companies need to roll. This kind of bad business needs to be punished harshly.

OK. Give up your health insurance, and donate the money you would pay to the charity of your choice. Right now.

I have a job and pay for my health insurance that it offers. If I lost my job or my company went under, I wouldnt be crying because I have no health insurance. I would understand that the way it works. People arent giving up health insurance for the greater good, the company they relied on failed them.

We're in a global economy (and most of the industrialized world has universal health care), especially when it comes to cars, so I think in this case right or responsibility, we end up at the same answer: we need universal health care.

I dont know much about healthcare or what it takes to get universal healthcare so I cant say, but if you're company supplied you health insurance and your company went bankrupt, you better get some on your own. You can ask for universal healthcare as a right when no program exists.

We need to supply these companies with money for a lot of reasons. Most importantly, because they ran themselves poorly, and in many cases did so because of cheap credit. But also because there is panic and a domino effect in a very complex and interconnected economy. Markets can and do overreact, and most people think there is some of that here too. There will be pain and suffering as we ride it out, but I am confident that the country is resourceful enough to weather the storm in the long run. We still don't know the full effects of this bailout, but as I said a few days ago, the bailout is an investment in banks. Not a blank check that is flushed down the toilet. That investment could be profitable for the taxpayers. If calm is restored, and we pull ourselves back up, it will be fine. This country has certainly suffered through worse and come out stronger.

 

And yes, I think we can pay back the money we borrow.

I dont know who will be the strongest nation, maybe not one country like America anymore. China seems to on the right track.

I think we are broke and in serious money trouble. We are borrowing tons just to stay alive and there is not end to the borrowing in sight. That constitutes broke to me, others may have differing definitions.

For us to start paying back, we need to start making money. For us to start making money, we have to stop spending and save and produce. Right now, we are recklessly spending to keep afloat bad business that dont make money. Putting forth bad policies to try to stabalize artifically high prices and reward the irresponsible to try to keep a fake standard of life. There is a reason why the banks arent lending like the government wants. Cause its learned from its mistakes. Its gonna be a long depression here.

Do you feel health care is a privelege, right, or responsibility?

responsibility

Ok, but a lot of the decisions China made and is making are horrible. They have 4x the population (credit: cryptique) and 1/5 the economy that we have. Come on, man. I am not saying we don't have to be smart and change a lot of broken things over here, but let's at least be sure the conversation proceeds along lines with reasonable perspective. The sky is certainly falling, and China may well step into holes we leave behind, but the country is not broke, we are the world's biggest economy by far, the rest of the world is dependent upon us, no one in the world wants to invest in a currency other than dollars, we consume much of what the world makes, and we are innovators in technology, finance (be careful what you wish for), etc. China isn't invading tomorrow.

Well I think there is a misunderstanding with a part of our talkings. I am not saying anything about China taking over us or even want that. I an American born and raised. I am just noting how their situation compares with ours. At this point we are still the world power, I know. But thats gonna change. You have to have money to be powerful.

I think the mentality that we are the world power and we have to survive for the world to survive is what will doom us. Because the fact is that the rest of the world can survive without us. All we do is consume. If we cant consume anymore, the rest of the world will. All that was coming to us will go to the rest of the world for less.

If we arent broke, then why do we need to supply banks and companies with hundreds of billions of dollars??? Do you think we can payback any of the money we borrow?

Anyways, thanks for letting me vent here.

I can only say this. Let's see how this whole bailout thing works out. Let's see where are in a few years, maybe at the end of Obama's term. Let the history books mark this horrific event and how it was handled. Just like the Iraq war.

I am assuming you don't work for an auto company. Let me know when you're willing to give up your health insurance for the greater good.

right now

Sure, but you are all over the place. You are advocating for a US policy that would ensure that this country crumbles. And will force China to sell its treasuries.

 

And I think you vastly overstate the amount of crumbling that we need to suffer through while China continues growing for it even to get close. And it ignores the fact that China's growth has slowed as our economy has slowed. So, it begs the question -- can an emerging market like China even grow without the US? China makes crap that they sell to the US. If the US can't buy it, who will?

 

The US bailout is as much an investment in "infrastructure" as China's bailout. I am as worried about the future of this country as anyone, but come on, ZenL. Take a deep breath.

I am not advocating any kind of policy. I just think alot of the decisions we made and are making are horrible. Right now, we should not bailout the auto industry but it will probably happen.

The question about if the rest of the world can survive without America is the main question. They have to and China is trying and that was the point of the article. The other countries will suffer from our losses but they will forge on only if they disconnect from our dollar. If they cant figure out that they can survive without us, then we will bring them down with us. First off, they can save alot of money by just not lending it to us. Secondly, if we dont buy, there's more for the rest of the worldand even themselves to buy. But of course business will change.

It's really not easy to make argue all these points on a forum because it takes to much time to type, but whatever.

Getting the credit markets to flow again is doing exactly the same thing. There is nothing inherently evil about credit. Over-indebtedness, sure. But no one buys a house without a loan. No one starts a business without a loan. No one can go to college without a loan. Are you opposed to this too?

Thats the small picture. Of course we need credit, but we have to take the signs. If companies have come back and back for more money, maybe they arent good business and need to die. Maybe if people cant afford to go to college or live in houses, maybe the price of houses and college needs to come down to a level people can afford. I'm just saying let it happen. Credit is needed, but you cant just look at it that simply. You have to look at what got us here and what the market is saying. We cant keep minipulating the market so we keep prospering.

You are a trip, ZenL. And you'd propose that we tank the entire economy by refusing financial bailouts, force unemployment to skyrocket, terminate health insurance for loyal employees, etc, so that hopefully, maybe, just maybe, one day down the road we can be stronger than China? Even though the article you quoted said we are already 5x bigger than the Chinese economy? And China has almost 2x as many people as we do.

Im not trying to compete with China. At this point we are still the strongest nation, but we are crumbling and China is growing.

ZenL - if we were broke, our dollar would be worth nothing, and China would be broke too. Our dollars are worth something. Quite a bit, in fact. So much so that everyone in the world buys them as the safest currency in the world. How can China be spending our dollars to build up their country (and you applaud it) while you simultaneously argue that our dollars aren't worth anything? Who are they selling our dollars to?

We are broke because our credit market just broke. We have like a 10 trillion national debt, problems with SS, and whatever else. There is a $700billion bailout on top of whatever else we are trying to fix.

The dollar still has value now, but my point is that it will wont if we keep going on this path. When you print more money, it devalues whatever is out there and thats where we are headed, to massive printing. The value in the dollar right now is not from sound fundalmentals. It is from the fear of dropping equities. People are cashing in. Its a temporary move before the bottom falls out.

This is the perfect time for them to sell our dollars to whoever will buy them because like you said, people are still buying it.

I think he prefers China's stimulus package because, rather than bailing out failing business to increase credit flow and consumer spending, they are spending the money on building infrastructure.

More than that, China isnt broke like us. They have money. It's there way of trying to increase domestic demand so they dont have to rely on our consuming country. Investing in themselves instead of us. Their way of breaking away from the dollar and not letting us drag them down with us.

We are going down, how many countries do we bring down with us is up to the other countries themselves.

I thought you were against a bailout, no?

YES, bailout for USA is wrong.

China is creating a stimulis and they can do it because they have trillion of US treasuries. They have money to spend on themselves. Their country is struggling and they are using the money to stimulate the economy. Therefore, less money for us, because thats China is one of our biggest lenders. Thats who we count on to fund our stimulis and bailouts. They are spending our dollars that they saved up over the years to build their country. Not only do we have less money coming to us, our treasuries will probably on sale from China making it harder for sell ours.

We are broke, we need lenders, we need other countries to finance us. Else we print and destory our dollar. We just keep spending to keep ourselves alive but it will come to an end.

The world no longer revloves around America. We will suffer. Depression is just getting started.

Fuckin' Commies....

 

LouieB

We are the fuckin idiots. Our country is going down in flames and they are making the smart move. Our leaders are the worst businessmen because we are cocky.

November 12, 2008

China Gets It Right, But Hurts America

by John Browne

The announcement of a massive stimulus package of almost $600 billion shows that China means business not just in reviving, but also in rejuvenating its economy.

As both America and China confront the prospect of a global depression, both countries have chosen to fend off potential unrest with liberal government spending. But the Chinese move is bolder and more likely to succeed.

The most remarkable aspect of the Chinese stimulus plan is its enormous size. Despite the massive publicity surrounding its formidable growth rate, the Chinese economy is still

Well, the federal government doesn't insure private-sector health benefits, so if they file Chapter 11 a lot of people would lose benefits. We need universal health care. But in the meantime we'll need some sort of bailout.

Benefits is one of the problems. People need to lose them. The company they worked for and depended on failed them. Thats the consequense. They shouldnt get bailed out by taxpayer money.

I wouldn't give them one cent without a laundry list of conditions.

I agree with this totally.

Looks like the best solution can be bankruptcy so GM can break away from Union contracts and relook at everything. I think we are going to see a whole new US auto industry which is what is needed. Happy that the 700 biliion bailout will not be used for autos but mad at the fact they are changing the rules and unclear about what the overall plan is.

$700billion bailout not yet for car industry. Sorry, gotta wait. GM may have to go into bankruptcy given current timeline.