ZenLunatic

Greg Maddux to announce his retirement on Monday.

One of the best pitchers of my generation. What a career.

Link?

They used Hybrid cars.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081205/bs_nm/...lout_execs_sb_1

You are forgetting one thing. We are AMERICANS!!! The world cannot exist without us. We rule the world. The rest of the world will keep giving until we dont even have to work anymore. Forget about work, why work when we can just borrow or print more money.

We are Americans!!! We deserve it.

Link?

I saw it on the news last night about yesterdays hearings.

Here is the newest on this -

http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=952234215&play=1

http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=952199222&play=1

Justice is served.

How did the bank execs get to Washington for their hearings? I don't think they rode Amtrak.

They drove there. Road Trip. Makes more sense.

Also.... The UAW dropped job banks since last meeting which is good thing. The CEOs mentioned they would work for a dollar a year which doesnt make sense to me. Ford seems to think they may now not need help. Seems like a good thing that Congress rejected the bailout last time, seems like a good thing for them to do it again.

Now instead of $25 billion they want $34 billion this time. How does that work? You know my opinion, forget it.

Took a break from watching and they have grown. They look a bit bigger and stronger.

I think also moved to a new spot.

Been on a Kurosawa kick:

, Throne of Blood, Yojimbo, probably Rashomon next.

you should watch A Fistful of Dollars with Clint Eastwood and see how much they stole from Yojimbo.

since money ain't a thing, i suggest zen lunatic pay your rent until the economy rights itself.

i like you EL the Famous, lets dose together.

When did I defend the auto industry? I defended their employees who had nothing to do with the industry's failures. Not the same thing.

 

And no I can't just move. I have a lease.

What is there to defend there? I dont blame the employees for the failure either, no one does, its the leaders of the companies. The leaders of the companies ran it into the ground.

ZenLunatic, Life Coach on Acid

Drop Acid not Bombs.

Who said anything about a job being a right? I'm not upset that I lost my job because I think that I was wronged, I'm upset about it because I don't want to be out on the street. Can you really not see the difference?

 

You're talking about philosophy while I'm talking about being able to afford to eat tomorrow.

You were the one defending the auto industry because the people in Detroit losing their jobs and how it was wrong to let it happen because of the the jobs. Anyways.... cant you move to a smaller place to save money? I dont know your situation.

My friends and family can't help out if they're all out of work too. Nice of you to make that offer on their behalf though.

 

I'm not blaming anyone. You blamed me (and countless others) for not having saved up enough money to be unemployed indefinitely, as if it's as easy as just deciding to have that money.

Hey, if all your friends and familes are out of work and moneyless, then we can talk. Although people should save money, its not just that, its more about thinking that a job taken away is like a right taken away. Just dont think that there's anything less cause you have less money. Money comes and goes. Dont forget the secret of the sea.

In actuality, the "crisis" that has hit the big three hit the crisis point over the summer. Before that, they were doing OK -- restructuring and retooling for more fuel efficient cars -- and not in this severe cash flow position they are in now (GM and Chrysler are worse off than Ford right now). The double punch of the fuel prices then the credit crunch has reduced the number of new cars forecast to be sold this year from 15+M to 11M -- nearly 1/3 fewer.

 

That's why they are asking for low cost loans -- to get them through the first Q of next year (while making huge cuts -- Chrysler cut another 5K jobs with more to follow from the others). I agree that the UAW has to give here too.

 

Anyway, deflation is a huge worry now. Let's say that if one of the big three decided to sell the land their offices are on and lease them back. The value of the property isn't enough now to do that. Same with selling off GMAC (which they would have to reduce their share of it to less than 33% in order to gain bank status BTW) -- they can't get much for it. And raising money on the private market just isn't possible right now. Who would have believed that a scant 6-12 months ago....

So, thats a start of what we need. They definitely need to cut jobs, plants, and dealers. Cut salaries. I think also cut many full product lines. Keep only the best selling ones. Slim and lean operations. UAW needs to be completely redone. Let's hear those plans to start.

How can you justify the not selling because of low price of your assets that can be sold off when you are in the midst of going bankrupt? If its sellable and you need money, you have to sell whatever the price. Would you rather go bankrupt with all those assets and lose everything at once?

I'm not talking about my happiness, I'm talking about my ability to pay rent next month.

 

Also, this is a completely idiotic point of view. Everyone's lives are intertwined, and people's lives are and always will be impacted by the decisions of other people.

We all effect one another, but how you handle what happens in your life it is soley on you. You cant blame anyone for the way your life turned out but yourself or you'll never understand.

Maybe you need to get a smaller place. Friends and family will help out.

Wait, you just advocated that government spend money on infrastructure/energy because this will create jobs, right?

Yeah I actually did. I want an energy plan that involves renewable sources. I think this is the future. I think we could spend money there if anywhere. Of course this would mean we cant spend on other things.

It's not really about "fault" anyway. I think you're fundamentally disregarding reality if you think that most people really have a choice about it, but even if someone is completely at fault for their own problems, I still think it's wrong to just let people's lives fall apart.

The life you live is completely your own making, you have to take all responsibilities for it. Your happiness is a choice. The government is just not supporting a flawed system that people were a part of. Its a shame that many hardworking people are victims to this, but these things are a part of life. If you believe in yourself you will still have a good life, just not the way you imagined it.

Not to mention, you are taking quite a leap of faith when you say that "people should just go find a job." If the Big 3 go under, those are lost jobs. Jobs the economy doesn't have any more. You continue to advocate for policies that would likely cause more layoffs in more industries, if not more bankruptcieis, resulting in more jobs lost. And a more hostile environment for business to flourish, resulting in less investment, and fewer opportunties to hire.

 

In other words, my biggest problem with a lot of what you say is that many of your assumptions are based in the old world order, and there's no way to predict what the new world order you demand will look like. People may not be able to simply go out and get a new job. And this is all self-perpetuating, and in an interconnected economy, quite possibly devastating for a generation if not more.

Some people wont find jobs, some people will. I'm not saying I will ever find a job or everyone would. We are headed in new territory, so what, dont be scared. I am optimistic in that we will find our way out.

We just cant support an industry just so a group of people can have their jobs safe. Its a drain on the whole country. The failure of the auto industry will not topple this country. Either the foreign car companies will take over or a new US company will emerge.

It's just that it's really easy to say that you'd be okay with losing your job, but it's hard to believe that you'll really be that okay with it if it actually happens. And assuming that you're in a position where you can survive for a while when you're out of work, well, it still misses the point that a lot of people won't be.

Well we as a government can help with unemployment like what Bush signed today. We can also try to create new jobs through tax relief on companies starting out. We can spend money on infrastructure of an energy plan to create new jobs. There's alot we can do, but what we cant do is support failing businesses with bad models. Someone will be able to make the car companies work, it may not be the existing people, but someone will.

Well whose fault is it if you create a life where a job loss means devastation? My life would change alot if I lost my job, but I know I could get by. People will get through this. Change is scary, I know, but we need it. The way we where living wasnt substainable. We need to get to a more real economy.

I guess if people cant be flexible to the changes in their life, cause this is causing huge shifts, this will be a hard time for them.

I call bullshit.

I guess thats why you cant understand my stance.

You're fine with it, but what are the prospects of it actually happening? There are tens of thousands of people who would be guaranteed to lose their jobs, healthcare, pensions, etc if these companies go under.

Likelihood of me losing my job is pretty high, maybe not as high as GM workers, but still up there. We will see unemployment rise alot more from here. Alot of people will be in this situation. If we try to save GM, it can take jobs away from other industries. It's not like GM will lose every employee if they dont get bailout. They will file Chapter11 which will make them drastically reduce in size which is what is needed. There will still be functioning plants and dealers with employees. America is being forced to downsize by market forces. Most companies will go through this.

I would like to say no job is secure. No one is guranteed a position for life. You have to make yourself valuable and create job security. You have to be able to change with shifting demands. If you lose your job, go out and look for a new one. Time is the only solution to this mess we are in.

News - GM returns leased private jets for travel after receiving harsh scrutiny.

America is us. We as americans are suffering and will suffer. If I lose my job, than I am fine with that.

Short-term is in the next 4-5 years, but who knows maybe longer.

I continue to think a dude from the London School of Economics whom I heard on NPR one late night had it right - "It is better to have high taxes and a job than to have low taxes and no job."

Thats true in and of itself. What if your job means you are making other people suffer? Is it still worth it? A job isnt good unless you are working for the good of your society.

If the auto industry collapses, it will hurt me. My mom would no longer get a pension or benefits, my ex would be out of a job and would be unable to pay child support, two of my kids would not have health benefits, I would no longer be able to be a stay at home mom and would have to send my kids to daycare, my friends and family would be out of jobs and would perhaps have to move out of state to find work, the value of my house will fall even more than it already has, the schools will suffer, etc.

 

I'm all for a bailout, but it has to be done right. I don't think they can just throw the money at them and let them do their thing, but I do think they need to do something.

 

Have you been to Michigan lately?

 

Here's a pretty realistic view of detroit. Detroit Blog

Thats a sad story and there will be many stories like that in this recession. It's already happening right now to alot of people. There really isnt anything you can do about it except start to look for new work and get by. GM is already planned to close plants regardless of bailout. There is only so much the government can do. They should do what they can to help this situation, but like you said dont throw good money away.

The problem is even clearer after the auto hearings in Washington, where the CEO's flew in their private jets and just flat out asked for billions without a real plan. Where's there a plan that can work? Where's a plan that people can get behind? When it comes down to it, dont blame the government for not supporting this bad company. Blame the auto companies themselves for creating the situation and not fixing it. Demand new leaders of your companies that can avoid this type of fall. You have to understand that if we give money to the auto industry, that money has to come from somewhere, some other industry will suffer. We have to deal with the companies we work for. Its not the governments fault that the US car companies failed.

Good luck with everything. I forsee a new energy plan creating massive jobs in America and should follow that idea. You know there will be the workers in the waiting.

When it comes to down to it the collapse of the auto companies will hurt America in the short term. More companies go out of business, more job loss, and everything else to worsen the recession. In the long run, it is better for America. We can start to build a new model for the US automakers that work now. Lets stop wasting money now. There will be a better Detriot only if we let bad Detriot go.

We have to stop thinking short term here in America. Lets bear through the pain now for the sake of a good future of America.