Central Scrutinizer

There are things you have no control over -- you don't have to be a person of any faith to understand and agree with the "serenity prayer." Worry about the things you can change, don't worry about the things you can't change, and be able to know the difference. Anyone can become overwhelmed by any combination of maladies. How you deal with it and get yourself out of bed is your believe system -- again doesn't have to have anything to do with God -- It's how you rationalize, deal with or come terms with meeting those maladies and being able to get out of bed. Be well and live well.

That is the point. That is the point. You believe what you want to believe. Side with the Seeds but don't side with anyone but yourself. Whatever you believe about life the world -- whatever -- that makes you comfortable about who you are and what is what. I have tried to make that point every which way. skol!

Just to do that Readers Digest thing, here are my comments throughout this thread -- including the first one, which has been my point all along: Here's one from Tweedy himself that I posted way earlier: Those are from the original first two pages. You believe what you believe. Whether that involves even addressing the question of god/no god, what you believe about yourself, life and everything is a combination of your logic mixed in with your biases, emotion, whims, fancy. To say you've arrived at where you're at with some Vulcan logic approach is as self-delusional as someo

Sorry but no one won this civil debate. I understand that we've all been put upon by people foisting their religion upon us, forcing their beliefs but the consensus -- and the points that were raised on both sides throughout -- is, in the words of Timothy Leary "Fucking think for yourself." You believe/or don't believe what you want to believe. Getting militant about atheism is as foolish as foisting tracts at the airport. There is no such thing as pure logic. Your emotions and biases wouldn't have brought you to toss this grenade into the room. If you believe you've come upon calling your

I think this is a very cool answer.

You wanna boil all of that down to a Reader's Digest version? Cheers!!

Bartender ...

That way he has .... of short, sharp ... punctuated pauses ... has a lulling quality. My problem is he hasn't luster but he hasn't won me over. I would love to be sure and convinced and I appreciate that those who are committed to him can be. I see someone playing the same games that won in the last six electons and has recast it to fit his rhetoric. Just relocating the home office from Hope, Ark., or Crawford, Texas. I so much want to be made to apologize for my doubt. And no one needs to hold me to it. I really hope he can do it.

I would hope from his phrase -- and your use of it -- that you imply I don't know myself. I know myself more than anyone and you certainly wouldn't profess to know whether that's true or not. I don't know you and you don't know me. But as long as we co-exist and find a means to do so justly, that's all that matters. That is the point I've been trying to make all along.

I'm saying you have a belief system -- those things which you believe to be true, those decisions you've made on how to live your life, whether you think killing is o.k., to tip 15% or 20%, to not lie (or to lie). Whether god or no god enters into that makes no difference. You have what you believe that makes you who you are and guides your decisions. That's all that I meant. You hold those decisions dear and defend them because that's what you believe to be true (again god, or even the question of existence doesn't have anything to do with it. Throw god out the door, put him in a box, fix him

You are probably right, but he didn't explain what he meant and I wouldn't suppose what he meant. That is not what "fear" meant biblically -- and not in the context of early folk songs. The translation of fear means of reverence, overwhelmed, awed obeyance. People were afraid of evil, the unknown, oppression, tyranny, and out of their own ignorance. Comfort and protection of a creator bonded these songs to the people and emboldened their faith, not buying into the equivalent of a midieval televangelist trying to scare them out of their farm implement. Just as blood of the lamb doesn't celebr

Ohh .... Faux off.

Maybe if we can think real hard we can stop all this rain, NO RAIN! NO RAIN! NO RAIN! ... ... damn." -- Noah

And Bush won the election by people overestimating Bush. Truth.

I think there is a spirtuality to Tweedy and his music. In Sunken Treasure he says the spiritual song is "so fearful" but fearful has different meanings. "We are all of god's money" means that if there is one, our humanity and love of life and world is as worshipful as you need to be. Living life well would seem to be tithing enough to most religions.

Honestly, no one can tell you what to believe. People can affect what you believe (some lured into church, some repelled into other beliefs by "churchy behavior." Holier than though. The greatest hypocrites often sit in the front pews and nod their heads and raise their hands most urgently. But if you burn or not, if there's even a fire, you figure that out for yourself. And honestly, some of the parables attributed to Jesus are better than LSD (or for a kick mix the two with the sacramental wine at your next party!).

If you could prove to me there was not god -- or the exact cause of the universe, and the meaning and life, and everything (42), I wouldn't need faith. So you can't convince me to believe or not believe in a god just because your standpoint is you won't even consider it. Also what creeps in is this belief that anyone is trying to convince you of it. I am at the moment considering purple garden gnomes but it wioll pass. That's what this keeps butting up again. You believe what you believe, but you believe what you believe and are passionate about it because your emotions are as much at play in

You better be careful, I'm going to get all Jodie Foster-Contact (not that there's anything wrong with Jodie Foster). I appreciate this discussion and hearing your views and believe me the last thing I'm trying to do is change anyone's mind. In fact that's my point. Your mind is made up base on your beliefs -- both empirical and emotional (you are arguing rather passionately about your subject ) I would say people's beliefs are an emotional thing. You feel passionately about them that you're willing to defend them. Your belief system says (I'm way, way oversimplifying not to belittle but for

But at least you don't have to pay some news service for the horoscopes ...

I think we will continue to miss each other on this, but we're both still swinging eh? I don't think you can think about a fundamental reason for a belief in god because you have chosen to exclude that question. So you can't understand how someone who built a system of intellectual and emotional beliefs that embody the potential that there is a greater force that we cannot possibly understand and has, for some reason, molded me out of some stuff from a metaphysical jar and placed me in motion like a pea in a pachinko game. Whether I embody faith in god/God/the deity formerly known as Pr

Those with the largest sexual appendages.

But I have no more reason to consider the black holes, despite the body of information presented than I do to consider your purple hole story. I'll listen to both stories. I accept the premise that I'm here and alive (whatever that means). That raises a lot of questions that I'll spend my entire life debating, questioning and doubting. I listen to a lot of stories. I listen to a lot of evidence -- both directly relating and tangential to that specific premise and the basic questions of existence that develop from it. How does athiesm sidestep the exploration of those questions?

One question we live is, "Why would you wanna live in this world?"