Lucinda Williams Fans ? Come ON...

[TheMaker]

actually only about a year...Oh Mercy!

 

Truth! Testify! Heh. This is the one part of the editorial I disagreed with. Oh Mercy is, on my more generous days, one of my top five favourite Dylan records.

 

Modern Times is just average Dylan, nothing more, nothing less. The collective music press really embarrassed itself by lavishing no end of praise on it. "Workingman's Blues #2," "When the Deal Goes Down" and "Nettie Moore" are all great Dylan tunes, but the rest is pretty thin. I enjoy listening to "Spirit on the Water" and the egregiousy overpraised "Ain't Talkin'," but there's absolutely nothing there lyrically. As a whole, the record is just about on par with records like Street-Legal, Self Portrait and Under the Red Sky. Minor Dylan, not to be taken seriously.

[mjpuczko]

working man blues #2 is fantastic.

[LouieB]

I love about 2/3 of Street Legal....

 

LouieB

[mjpuczko]

where are you tonight is very good. the only song i do not like is new pony. i'm also a huge slow train fan. and, in the last 5 years, have become a fan of saved

[owl]

Anyone ever hear the "Happy Birthday, Bob" song by Loudon Wainwright III? It's pretty damn good.

[Littlebear]

Anyone ever hear the "Happy Birthday, Bob" song by Loudon Wainwright III? It's pretty damn good.

 

Yeah. He even imitates Bob's voice, it's funny.

 

It's on the album History. I'm a fan of Loudon and have pretty much all of his albums.

[Littlebear]

'you're still standing there' from i feel alright. great song & one of my fave albums ever. in fact, i'm going to quit listening to west & listen to that.

 

I was listening to I Feel Alright last night and didn't find it that great. It's just a collection of songs "in the style of". West is much better than that.

[MattZ]

Owl - thanks for sharing the editorial on Lucinda vs. Bob. It was a fun read. I have to say, though, that the comparison is forced (at best). To say that Lucinda's career is following an arc similar to Dylan's because the last three albums have declined steadily is unfair. Lucinda never had the run that Dylan had from '64 to '68. Or even '68 to '75. Not even close. I am not familair with her work prior to Car Wheels, but everyone I know seems to think that's her masterpiece. It's a great album - don't get me wrong - but its not even in the same universe as Dylan's top 10 albums.

 

To say that Lucinda "wore out" after releasing 3 or 4 excellent albums seems to me to reflect the fact that many artists decline after releasing their first few albums.

 

Maybe Dylan wore out. I suppose that can be argued. (I would argue he didn't). But we can also argue about whether he released 10 or 20 classic albums before doing so. Lucinda released 2 or 3 albums that aren't even in the same league before falling off and so maybe she "wore out too"? Or maybe she just isn't good enough to release more than 2 or 3 great albums?

 

Maybe the decline of Lucinda Williams is more a sign of the fact that she shouldn't be compared to Bob Dylan. Nor should anyone for that matter. Not that that's a knock against anyone.

 

Anyway, thanks again for the link. It was a fun read. I am just a biased Dylan fanboy anyway, so ignore what I say.

[LouieB]

I borrowed this album (lucinda, not bob which I obviously own) from Laurie's yesterday (Thanks Melissa) and while I have only listened to half of it, I can say categorically it is not bad but it isn't a masterpeice by any stretch of the imagination. More after I listen to the entire thing.

 

LouieB

[Lammycat]

and while I have only listened to half of it, I can say categorically it is not bad but it isn't a masterpeice by any stretch of the imagination.

LouieB

No slam on Louie at all here, but how many albums are truly "masterpieces?" I can think of very, very few off the cuff that I'd listen to all the way through each time due to the fact that they are masterpieces. Every artist has hits/misses on their albums.

 

Generally, (and this may be indicative of my feeble brain or a tinge of the apathetic in me), I'm happy if a handful of the tunes on an album move me. Take Dylan's latest Modern Times. There are some well written/composed tunes on there. There are also a few I typically skip over. Duds in my eyes/ears. Yet, it's hailed as one of the best albums last year. Go figure.

 

I guess my point is that not all all of Shakespeare's works are masterpieces, either, but they're still worthy of a read here and there.

[Littlebear]

No slam on Louie at all here, but how many albums are truly "masterpieces?" I can think of very, very few off the cuff that I'd listen to all the way through each time due to the fact that they are masterpieces. Every artist has hits/misses on their albums.

 

Generally, (and this may be indicative of my feeble brain or a tinge of the apathetic in me), I'm happy if a handful of the tunes on an album move me. Take Dylan's latest Modern Times. There are some well written/composed tunes on there. There are also a few I typical skip over. Yet, it's hailed as one of the best albums last year. Go figure.

 

I guess my point is that not all all of Shakespeare's works are masterpieces, either, but they're still worthy of a read here and there.

 

To boot, I'm pretty sure we all here have different criterias and references. All the critics of the world can't agree on one unanimous masterpiece.

 

In my opinion, the most interesting takes are argumentative interpretations, that's usually what I like to read on forums or anywhere else.

[owl]

Yeah. He even imitates Bob's voice, it's funny.

I love it. I laugh every time I hear it.

 

Owl - thanks for sharing the editorial on Lucinda vs. Bob. It was a fun read. I have to say, though, that the comparison is forced (at best)...

 

Maybe the decline of Lucinda Williams is more a sign of the fact that she shouldn't be compared to Bob Dylan. Nor should anyone for that matter. Not that that's a knock against anyone.

 

I agree that it's a bad comparison, even if some parallels can be made. It can definitely be like picking out a coffin for an artist because it holds her to an impossible standard- not only because Dylan has done so much good stuff, but also because Dylan is now an icon separate from his achievement. I agree, she shouldn't be compared to Dylan.

 

But- I think that many people tend to see her that way, and the comparison really hurts her. It's obvious especially now, with a disappointing album like West. It's not bad, and if you put it up against Modern Times, it's not that much worse. Normally, to say Lucinda has made an album that rivals Dylan's latest would be a good thing, but the truth about Modern Times- if you don't look at it with a blind eye- just makes West seem worse.

 

At this point, Dylan is basically infalliable. Lucinda is still human, though and it hurts West all the more.

[Littlebear]

There's no way to compare Lucinda to Bob Dylan, really. There's no point. Lucinda is an artist of her own.

 

Everytime a singer songwriter writes folk songs on guitar and plays a harp, he's compared to Dylan. It's been the case with Loudon Wainwright III, John Prine, Butch Hancock, and so on. It's just ridiculous. I prefer Loudon Wainwright to Dylan, for instance. I prefer hundreds of singer songwriters to Dylan.

 

You say Lucinda isn't up to Dylan upon lyrical criteria, I assume? Well, I can reply to you that Dylan doesn't sing like Lucinda, he's not sensual, and he'll never make my joy like Lucinda does.

 

The best singer songwriter, in many ways, would be the one that is talented in every department, but Dylan's vocals are just awful.

 

West is musically flawless from track 3 to 11. It'll be hard to find a singer as immediately powerful as Lucinda this year. Her delivery is universal, and as a French, I guess I can attest.

[LouieB]

No slam on Louie at all here, but how many albums are truly "masterpieces?"

You get no argument from me on that. Take it up with the folks who ARE calling it such.

 

LouieB

[LouieB]

I finally started to listen to this album: people, you're crazy! This album is a MASTERPIECE!

Just in case we need reminding who is calling it a masterpiece....from the littlebear's mouth.

 

(Maybe we also need to school him on why Dylan IS a great vocalist....and why Louden Wainwright III is a pretty good songwriter, but hardly close to Dylan.)

 

LouieB

[Beltmann]

I minimize my disappointment in West by putting it on the shelf and instead pressing play on the new Patty Griffin.

[LouieB]

I minimize my disappointment in West by putting it on the shelf and instead pressing play on the new Patty Griffin.

Another album I have not heard, but it is getting great reviews.

 

Also, i am not the least bit disappointed in Modern Times. I like the songs, I like Dylan's delivery and I have listened to it numerous times. It might not be the greatest thing he ever did, but that doesn't stop me from enjoying it for what it is. Every album Dylan puts out may be his last. Dig it while he is still around.

 

Even what I have heard of this Lu album, it is a hard listen. (Particularly Come on...really a low blow so to speak.)

 

LouieB

[Leo]

OK. Listened to it and, it's ... pretty good.

 

I enjoyed listening to it. Wasn't floored, like when I first heard S/T, or like on the 3rd listens of Car Wheels and Essence, but I liked it.

 

Once again, she's brutally honest. Her lyrics may not be brilliant like early Dylan, or inspired like Tweedy, or magic like Waits; but, WTF, do they have to be? Instead, she just bears this vulnerable heart in plain and direct language. Behind her words are resignation, then acceptance. It works.

 

I think it's a worthy addition to her catalogue.

[Leo]

Even what I have heard of this Lu album, it is a hard listen. (Particularly Come on...really a low blow so to speak.)

 

LouieB

 

Lou, I've got to disagree.

The sentiment certainly is direct and uncomfortable, but she accomplishes it perfectly. Plus, the tune ROCKS with Crazy Horse guitar and Ray Manzarek organ. I thought it was one of the highlights of the album.

You've got to admit, she's got BALLS!

Going to miss you next weekend.

[Leo]

. Her delivery is universal, and as a French, I guess I can attest.

 

As a human being, I don't know what you mean.

[LouieB]

I minimize my disappointment in West

OK. Listened to it and, it's ... pretty good.

I think it's a worthy addition to her catalogue.

Since I know both of you personally and respect your opinions, this is a good place to put the obvious platitude that what we hear usually has to do with our expectation going in. Since I have had lowered expectations on Lucinda since the release of WWT and hearing her sound sort of screetchy on the Fillmore live set, I am neither impressed nor dismayed with what I have heard. Based on what I now know, I will hold out for a used copy of this one. I don't find this terribly thrilling, but I do find it somewhat difficult to listen to (Lu is majorly bummed out, clearly.) And the repetition on some of the songs is irritating to me as well. Maybe I need to spin it a few more times, I don't know, but there seem to be alot of records sitting in piles around my place that are also calling out for some attention.

 

LouieB

[Leo]

(Lu is majorly bummed out, clearly.) And the repetition on some of the songs is irritating to me as well. Maybe I need to spin it a few more times, I don't know, but there seem to be alot of records sitting in piles around my place that are also calling out for some attention.

 

LouieB

 

She's a freaking train wreck. They say time heals. Apparently not enough time has passed between WWT and West.

Her themes on the last two studio albums do tend to be repetitive and, at times, border on tiresome, but that bluesy groove she couches them in usually hooks me.

[Littlebear]

Just in case we need reminding who is calling it a masterpiece....from the littlebear's mouth.

 

(Maybe we also need to school him on why Dylan IS a great vocalist....and why Louden Wainwright III is a pretty good songwriter, but hardly close to Dylan.)

 

LouieB

 

I confirm what I said: West is a masterpiece. No problem with that.

 

We certainly have different criteria to make our respective appreciations. Your problem, on the other hand, is to be so sure of your points, and speak of "schooling" me, using "we" as if you were part of a majority, whereas this majority is just based on old and narrow-minded certitudes.

[Littlebear]

As a human being, I don't know what you mean.

 

I mean that the power of her voice does cross the language barriers.

 

But anyway, it's the same in French for me. As early as you sing some lyrics, you give them more power than what they just mean on the paper.

[Beltmann]

But anyway, it's the same in French for me. As early as you sing some lyrics, you give them more power than what they just mean on the paper.

It's at least a different kind of power. Sometimes poetry is musical, and sometimes music is poetic, but nevertheless, music is not the same thing as poetry. Lyrics, since they exist as part of a complex dynamic that includes an essential interaction with sonic qualities, have an entirely different context than a poem--which is why, at least sometimes, judging lyrics according to conventional literary notions of poetry isn't just unfair, it's missing the point. Words that might seem trite when isolated on a page often accumulate meaning when accompanied by a specific musical dynamic or delivery. Every poster in this thread can name an undisputedly classic rock song that has lyrics that would read poorly when isolated from the rest of the song.

 

That said, sometimes the literary qualities of certain lyrics are enough to justify any song. And sometimes certain artists--such as Lucinda Williams--have written enough lyrics that can stand alone on the page that we've come to expect that from them, even when that expectation isn't always fair.

 

Point is, each set of lyrics ought to be taken on its own terms, in proper context.