Thanatos Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 Kidsmoke-Just curious as to why the infamous "Sellout" post was closed recently. I should say that it is not my intention to point fingers or cry foul (or to re-open the debate over the recent VW commercial), but I was wondering if you could explain how the administrators of VC go about making the decision as to when/why to close out a particular thread or topic. Honestly, I'm not sure if you closed the thread or jnickerson did, but you did make a request that it be closed. The fact that this thread had grown to over 40-plus pages seems to illustrate that people were fairly interested in the discussion, so I guess I'm just a little confused. Regardless of my own personal opinion (or those of other VC members) concerning the aforementioned thread, I was most troubled by the fact that several people felt that jnickerson's opinions had no validity or warranted attack simply because it was his first post on this board. I recognize that any perceived criticism of Wilco may inspire people to rush to their defense, and I have no problem with that (I've thrown down the gauntlet myself many times). That's part of what being a fan is alll about, because we feel an emotional connection to the band...they are a very real part of who we are, part of our emotional DNA. So, it's understandable that we might feel personally threatened when we feel that Tweedy & Co. are likewise being threatened. At the same time, I don't think we should deny someone the right to offer their opinion based on the number of posts they've accrued. It seemed obvious to me that jnickerson's reason for posting came from the fact that he is a Wilco fan and he wanted to open a discussion with other fans regarding a particular issue involving the band, albeit a divisive one.Although I rarely post on this board, I visit VC frequently (I believe "lurking" is the proper terminology?) because I'm a huge fan of Wilco and I enjoy reading the thoughts and opinions of other fans (even though I may not agree with them). I know that sometimes a particular topic can rouse emotions and lead to some fairly rude reactions. For the most part, I attribute this behavior to the fact that Wilco has a very devoted and passionate fanbase (of which I am very proud to be a part of)...but I also think that the degree of anonyminity inherent in any on-line community is a substantial contributing factor. It's easier to sling mud when you're not face to face with someone ("Distance has no way...making love understandable").As I said before, I'm not tryng to start a fight or make accusations...just looking for some clarity on this issue and felt the need to flesh out my own feelings/observations. I hope I didn't throw fuel on the fire in any way because that was not my intention...I sincerely apologize in advance if anyone takes offense. I would also like to thank Kidsmoke and all the administrators of VC for what they do in providing us this forum...hats off for all your efforts! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gogo Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 I don't know if kidsmoke is around at the moment, so I'm going to take the liberty of addressing some of these issues. I'm not speaking for her, and if I'm misrepresenting her reasoning in closing that thread, or any other moderator/admin's thoughts, I'm sure they'll jump in and correct me. First, I'm going to quote the wise Mr. skurj, from the other thread (still open) where this topic is being discussed: There comes a point where all the arguments have been made several times over and, so this board does not degenerate into a trollpocalypse like so much of the Internet, a thread is closed. If people still want to fight about it, they can do it on IM or with nunchucks or pistols at 10 paces. I didn't read all of that thread, but from checking in every few pages, it seemed that it was ready to run off the rails the last time I checked. Often after a thread gets really heated, it degenerates into either personal attacks or rampant silliness. The personal attacks are obviously not acceptable, and while the goofiness is usually kind of fun, it's also a sign that whatever was being discussed has truly been discussed to death. That thread is closed, but that doesn't mean the topic is no longer an acceptable topic of discussion. It's just that that particular thread has ceased to serve its purpose as a place for sensible discussion. But the topic can be raised in a new thread, or discussed in other related threads. As to whether or not people took the original poster's opinion seriously, because it was his first post on this board, all I can say to that is that there are such things as trolls on the internet. People are cautious, especially when a topic that has the potential to be so divisive is brought up. If it had been raised by someone who has been around VC for a while, other people would have some sense of the poster's overall personality and outlook, and might better be able to judge whether the post was intended to spark a legitimate discussion, or just to stir up shit. In this case it absolutely led to a legitimate dicsussion, but then that conversation ran its course. Hope that makes some sense. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Thanatos Posted May 31, 2007 Author Share Posted May 31, 2007 Often after a thread gets really heated, it degenerates into either personal attacks or rampant silliness. Sorry, couldn't resist! Thanks for your response. I have to say that I'm still a bit confused, though. There seems to be no shortage of threads on VC that are allowed to go on regardless of personal attacks and/or degree of silliness. Apart from some of the uglier remarks in the "sellout" thread, most of the posts seemed genuine in their interest for the topic. Just my opinion...Thanks again for the explanation! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bobbob1313 Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 I have to say that I'm still a bit confused, though. There seems to be no shortage of threads on VC that are allowed to go on regardless of personal attacks and/or degree of silliness. Apart from some of the uglier remarks in the "sellout" thread, most of the posts seemed genuine in their interest for the topic. The threads that are silly are generally meant to be silly, and so they are allowed to wallow in their own silliness. There's a whole silly forum where these sillies are kept. As for the other thing, I had no problem withhis opinion based on the number of posts or how long he'd been a member. I had a problem with him only posting in the thread he created and nowhere else. It reeked of trolling. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Atticus Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 throwing the pyromaniac a book of matches eh? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Thanatos Posted May 31, 2007 Author Share Posted May 31, 2007 As for the other thing, I had no problem withhis opinion based on the number of posts or how long he'd been a member. I had a problem with him only posting in the thread he created and nowhere else. It reeked of trolling. What is the definition of "trolling" as it pertains to VC or any other message board? Honestly, I'm unfamiliar with this term.Also, why do you have a problem with someone only posting in a thread they created? If it's his first post, how can he be expected to post anywhere else, at least at first? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
LouieB Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 That thread had degenerated into a random thought thread. The actual argument had long since petered out. I was surprised to see it closed, but frankly no harm done on that account. LouieB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bobbob1313 Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 What is the definition of "trolling" as it pertains to VC or any other message board? Honestly, I'm unfamiliar with this term.Also, why do you have a problem with someone only posting in a thread they created? If it's his first post, how can he be expected to post anywhere else, at least at first? Trolling is basically just posting to get a rise out of people. I had a problem with him posting something like 100 times in one thread and not posting even once in any others. It doesn't matter, but it irked me and it made me think he was just trolling. I'm hoping he sticks around as he seems intelligent and passionate enough to make positive contributions to the board, but I wouldn't be a bit surprised if he didn't. I've seen it happen before on this board and many others. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Thanatos Posted May 31, 2007 Author Share Posted May 31, 2007 Trolling is basically just posting to get a rise out of people. I had a problem with him posting something like 100 times in one thread and not posting even once in any others. It doesn't matter, but it irked me and it made me think he was just trolling. I'm hoping he sticks around as he seems intelligent and passionate enough to make positive contributions to the board, but I wouldn't be a bit surprised if he didn't. I've seen it happen before on this board and many others. Thanks for the clarification.I see your point, but I think one could also make the argument that he was just responding to other posts responding to his remarks. Also, the thread could have quickly died out if no one was interested in joining the conversation. If it's obvious that someone is trolling, what purpose does it serve to respond to them?P.S. - Please warn me if I am in danger of becoming a troll with this thread!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bobbob1313 Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 Thanks for the clarification.I see your point, but I think one could also make the argument that he was just responding to other posts responding to his remarks. Also, the thread could have quickly died out if no one was interested in joining the conversation. If it's obvious that someone is trolling, what purpose does it serve to respond to them?P.S. - Please warn me if I am in danger of becoming a troll with this thread!! You're good, though this thread probably belongs in a different forum. I'll let it slide this time. Well, thats problem, isn't it? If it's a person's first post you can't know whether they are trolling, and thats the problem with making your first post a big shot out at the community. I think it's really easy to be mistaken for a troll if nobody knows your posting style. It could be misconstrued as just trying to bait people into an argument. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Thanatos Posted May 31, 2007 Author Share Posted May 31, 2007 You're good, though this thread probably belongs in a different forum. I'll let it slide this time. Well, thats problem, isn't it? If it's a person's first post you can't know whether they are trolling, and thats the problem with making your first post a big shot out at the community. I think it's really easy to be mistaken for a troll if nobody knows your posting style. It could be misconstrued as just trying to bait people into an argument. I guess I really didn't think his initial post was "a big shot out at the community"...just my opinion of course. He was initially questioning the band's/Tweedy's decision to sell one of their songs to a car company because he didn't agree with it for his own personal reasons. It's true that he may have come across a tad strident or accusatory in his delivery, but it was directed at the band. Of course, this was a rather hot topic and it unfortunately ignited some sharp-tongued remarks and even worse...a heated debate over gas mileage worthy of Consumer Reports! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kidsmoke Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 I can't expand or improve upon Gogo's response (thanks for stepping up, Maudie, as I wasn't around). She stated all my reasons for closing that, and with a lucidity that always impresses. The thread had long since simply degenerated into meaninglessness. As for the topic itself, if there remains interest, there's no reason it can't be discussed (although it's my personal opinion that the thing is utterly played out). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Thanatos Posted May 31, 2007 Author Share Posted May 31, 2007 I can't expand or improve upon Gogo's response (thanks for stepping up, Maudie, as I wasn't around). She stated all my reasons for closing that, and with a lucidity that always impresses. The thread had long since simply degenerated into meaninglessness. As for the topic itself, if there remains interest, there's no reason it can't be discussed (although it's my personal opinion that the thing is utterly played out). Thanks, Kidsmoke! I don't want to kick a dead horse, but I do have one more question if you'll indulge me: Does your decision to close a particular topic have anything to do with technical concerns (using up too much memory on the website, etc.)? I guess I would personally find that easier to understand than an administrator saying, "This topic has been fully explored and there's nothing more for anyone to say about it."Thanks again for answering my questions. Keep up the good work! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kidsmoke Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 Thanks, Kidsmoke! I don't want to kick a dead horse, but I do have one more question if you'll indulge me: Does your decision to close a particular topic have anything to do with technical concerns (using up too much memory on the website, etc.)? I guess I would personally find that easier to understand than an administrator saying, "This topic has been fully explored and there's nothing more for anyone to say about it."Thanks again for answering my questions. Keep up the good work! Yes, in some cases. And please note: it was not a question of whether the topic had been fully explored, as this discussion might have gone on much longer, with new voices adding opinions. It was that the topic wasn't even the topic anymore, and had degenerated completely into meaningless random postings. It's rare for a topic to need to be "put down", but this one needed some common sense applied. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tugmoose Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 Did you know he was GAY?It's OK, though. He's dead. What, did I say something? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Thanatos Posted June 1, 2007 Author Share Posted June 1, 2007 Did you know he was GAY?It's OK, though. He's dead.What, did I say something? I now declare this thread both silly AND pointless, and I call on the moderators to close it at once, post-haste!!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bjorn_skurj Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 Silly, and a bit suspect. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
napoleon Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 i just wanted ice cream. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spawn's dad Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 Silly, and a bit suspect. are you lobbying to be a moderator? I'm part of another community where the mods make those oink guys look like wimps. They regularly suspend members, attempt to (pretend, at least) to make members adhere to some journalistic certainty when making posts, and constantly edit and delete posts. Any mention of politics is itself likely to lead to a smack down. Even funner is when the mods publicly disagree with one another. so I'm voting for that. I vote for Bjorn. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Analogman Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 That must be something. The other day, someone showed me a forum page from that place - every thread on the page was locked. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spawn's dad Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 there's an entire forum devoted to discussing moderator actions. it's the crazy thing I've been a part of on the interweb. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Analogman Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 I think things are too easy here - but - I probably would have been kicked off of here a long time ago if they were stricter. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spawn's dad Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 or you'd be the supreme ruler....hard to say Quote Link to post Share on other sites
entropy Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 I like this forum. At first I was a bit frustrated by the divisions, but I realized after it made perfect sense with the relatively large number of users (comparitively to what I was used to at least.) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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