ZenLunatic Posted November 1, 2007 Author Share Posted November 1, 2007 OK, get ready, its starting. I feel like with the prices so low, HD-DVD may take it. Secret Walmart sale Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PigSooie Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 OK, get ready, its starting. I feel like with the prices so low, HD-DVD may take it. Secret Walmart sale Heh. I posted that this morning. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
a.miller Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 I bought one on Monday....and now a secret sale is 50% lower, 4 days later...I'll be damned. However, IT IS AWESOME. Better than I thought. Make sure you have and HDTV....some try to hook it to a normal TV and it just doesn't work that way. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
solace Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 i'm rooting for Blu-Ray too, simply because for computer uses it holds 10 gigs more per disc (and 20 more for double layer) than HD DVD Blu-Ray = 25 gig (single) 50 gig (dual)HD-DVD = 15 gig (single) 30 gig (dual) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
a.miller Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 i'm rooting for Blu-Ray too, simply because for computer uses it holds 10 gigs more per disc (and 20 more for double layer) than HD DVD Blu-Ray = 25 gig (single) 50 gig (dual)HD-DVD = 15 gig (single) 30 gig (dual)Trust me, if you do some research your mind will be changed. Plus, all but 2 studios are signed on with HD-DVD. Check out this message board. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
squarewave Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 Please don't intentionally direct otherwise intelligent people to the AVS Forum... That entire area is a minefield and a lot of conjecture from armchair quarterbacks. You will rarely see anyone with a real perspective in that area, their views are quickly buried (and many times rudely contradicted) by the masses. This is my industry of 16+ years, and I was a frequent contributor there and still have an HT construction threads turned sticky. An industry reviewer called the pseudo-experts from the internet forums "exuberant monkeys" who simply regurgitate information posted by actual experts as their own idea and advice to the next person... even when it is given in the improper context and muddys the water more than adding any clarity to the dialogue.IMO, there is no finer example of the exuberant monkey phenomenon than the AVS Forum. Although not on AVS, I outed a 13 yr old kid on another popular (but un-named) site who was giving electrical advice to an installer attempting to ask other professionals for a round table opinion on how to tackle a particularly difficult application... Not only was the information blatantly incorrect, it violated US Electrical Code and posed a potential fire hazard!! As with ANY advice and unsubstantiated information from the internet, take what you read on AVS with a massive grain of salt.... In fact, take your salt shaker. These days, I spend my time elsewhere.Feel free to ask questions on the Integration Pros website. integrationpros.com Search first and try tro ask on an existing thread if you can locate one. Yes, it's one of *those* boards (A-Man would be right at home), and they can flame a little for not attempting to look it up on your own. This is the home for professionals who design and install some of the finest residential electronics systems in the World... and you will get good advice, no charge.Note: Please, If you are not in the industry, do not apply for verification on that site.... It's a pros only area of the forum.Say Rick told you to come over... BACK TO THE OTAs for HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray...The capacity difference in the technology is unrealized at this time, so it truly is 6 of one, half dozen of the other. They both support 1080P with 60 or 24 frames, and up to 12 bit color depth (aka "Deep Color) which crushes the 8 bit standard of 17 million colors and extends to 69 BILLION colors, which is more than the eye can resolve... As for seeing 60 frames, 24 frames, and the color depth on your movies and on your set....This varies by the quality of the digital file from the original theatrical release, or the transfer from film to the digital file, it also requires a specific high bandwidth switching solution which many of the best receivers have just started including on their $1K+ models, and it also requires a new generation projector or plasma capable. Again, there are only a handful capable. OK, that is DEFINITELY some hardcore geek speak... what it means is that either format is capable of REALLY good images on any level of HD from a 720P price point model to a reference grade display.... and they are virtually indistinguishable from one format to the other in the current discs that have been released on both formats, now and as far into the future as the market allows this war to continue. There are notable variations on certain titles, but different titles swing the difference in opposite ways... The experts blame the transfers of those particular titles, and not the technology.We do not have a large enough sample size of titles in each format to definitively see a trend one way of the other from quality transfers to both formats. The HD-DVD media is significantly less expensive for the studios to mass produce...And since Hollywood is a big cash register first and foremost, that has swayed many studios to choose to release on HD-DVD only specifically because of this.Another feature in favor of HD-DVD are the navigation extras. You can review chapters and look at special features while the movie is still playing. This seems like a dumb feature, but in practice it is a very nice feature that I miss on the Blu Ray discs. There are already "unnofficial" universal players, and I believe that this trend will gain traction and there will be more fully realized models shown at CES in January. I own both formats on dedicated players, but then again this is what I do for a living, and I need the best possible sources to highlight the best possible projection equipment. As for upconverted DVD looking as good as HD-DVD or Blu-Ray... I am sorry, but that simply is not true.There is NO DOUBT that the modern upconverted DVD with the Gennum, ABT/Silicone Image, or HQV Silicon Optix chipsets and a really good copper or lossless HDMI cable will look FAR superior to the "progressive scan" DVD players of a few years back. However, they still use interpolation to take a 4:3 aspect native 480i file and scale it to the resolution of the display (720P, 1080i, or 1080P) Blu Ray or HD-DVD are new transfers and are native at the 16:9 aspect 1080P resolution, no anamorphic correction is required. In the case of connection to 720P or 1080i sets, they downconvert the 1080P file, which is less damaging to the end result than interpolation of a lower res file. There is no interpolation to place faux pixels where the do not exist. Even after the image portion of the disc, there are majpor differences... Standard DVD audio tracks are 5.1 of compressed audio (Dolby Digital or DTS) and both of the new formats support multi-channel lossless soundtracks through Dolby Digital Plus, DTS HD, and DTS Master Audio. Trust me when I say that this represents a MAJOR difference. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
burns3 Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 OK, get ready, its starting. I feel like with the prices so low, HD-DVD may take it. Secret Walmart sale Hold out for the A3 on sale at Sears for $170 on Black Friday. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ZenLunatic Posted November 2, 2007 Author Share Posted November 2, 2007 Blu Ray or HD-DVD are new transfers and are native at the 16:9 aspect 1080P resolution, no anamorphic correction is required. In the case of connection to 720P or 1080i sets, they downconvert the 1080P file, which is less damaging to the end result than interpolation of a lower res file. There is no interpolation to place faux pixels where the do not exist. Even after the image portion of the disc, there are majpor differences... Standard DVD audio tracks are 5.1 of compressed audio (Dolby Digital or DTS) and both of the new formats support multi-channel lossless soundtracks through Dolby Digital Plus, DTS HD, and DTS Master Audio. Trust me when I say that this represents a MAJOR difference. Thanks for the helpful info. Its what I thought. I have questions. I have a 720p/1080i set. So you are saying that a HD-DVD/bluray player that is 1080p would look better on my set than a 1080i player? I thought an 1080p player would not do anything more cause of my set. So the sound would be the quality of SACD/DVD-A? So any guess on what format wins? I'm kinda going for the cheaper solution which is HD-DVD. If pretty similar, why not go with the better priced one. Sorry Sony you lose again. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
solace Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 Trust me, if you do some research your mind will be changed. Plus, all but 2 studios are signed on with HD-DVD. Check out this message board.oh trust me... i've read a SHIT ton about the format (hell i don't even have an HD TV yet, because i'm waiting so that I can afford a really nice/big 1080p sometime next year when we buy a house). and i know for movies HD DVD is getting a ton of backing, but like i said, my biggest use for DVD's currently is data storage moreso than movies, so that is a factor i can't ignore... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
a.miller Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 Cool thoughts all around. Didn't know AVS was such a "poor" source of info. I agree on taking most info on the Internet with a grain of salt. However, I still think you can get some good info if you filter the information well enough. EDIT: BTW, I was only trying to be helpful in steering people to AVS. Your tone seemed pretty unhappy, while perhaps not directed squarely at me, I was only trying to help. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
squarewave Posted November 3, 2007 Share Posted November 3, 2007 a.miller... Don't think that there was any malice or insult of any type intended!! A friend in the industry coined a perfect a/v geek phrase in regard to AVS...The threads on AVS have a poor signal to noise ratio. In the early days of AVS there were curious newbs, and a LOT of pros and manufacturers there to add value and really help out. In a thread about (pick a topic) there would be 30 replies, 20 of which were solid information that would really add to your general overall knowledge on the subject.... Today, there are 300 (or 3,000) replies, and still only about 20 which will add to your general overall knowledge on the subject!! That's a lot of filtering, reading about inside jokes and slights on the other posters, and a LOT of conjecture, endless shilling from fanboys of a particular something, and armchair QBs who like to debate the quantum physics of the subject (although generally COMPLETELYT Out of context) and basically make the threads unreadable. Also, have you seen the site?? They have more ads that god damn Times Square...There is a TON of shilling and BS allowed, because the idiot masses are jaw-jacking endlessly about a company who happens to have a banner. Feel free to ask questions here. I am happy to continue to add to this thread. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
squarewave Posted November 4, 2007 Share Posted November 4, 2007 Thanks for the helpful info. Its what I thought. I have questions. I have a 720p/1080i set. So you are saying that a HD-DVD/bluray player that is 1080p would look better on my set than a 1080i player? I thought an 1080p player would not do anything more cause of my set. You are correct... The entry level HD-DVD players like the HD-A2 or HD-A3 from Toshiba which max at 1080i will be just as good as a model that goes to 1080p when you are setting it at a lower rate for your current HDTV. You want to select the "native" rate of the TV anyway... So the sound would be the quality of SACD/DVD-A?Not necessarily... The bandwidth is there, but the soundtrack is originally designed for theatrical playback. COUNT on the music to be heavily compressed as a part of the production. The lack of compression in the transfer to the home version is not going to bring the dynamics back to the music. The THX program was the original "reference" program to ensure that the process made the soundtrack more palatable for home. In contrast, the SACD and DVD-A were remastered from studio tracks that were intended to be high fidelity....Not saying there is no compression in the recordings!!! Just saying that the movies use THOSE tracks and then compress them to place dialog, foley (environmental noises to emulate what you are seeing on the screen) and other sounds.... So any guess on what format wins? I'm kinda going for the cheaper solution which is HD-DVD. If pretty similar, why not go with the better priced one. Sorry Sony you lose again. Sony owns too many studios and a deep catalog of classic titles under Columbia TriStar and their other holdings...I am not placing any bets at this time, but the HD-DVD move was pretty significant. No doubt we will see more loss leader models sold for both formats this shopping season. If anything, the competition is good for the consumers... The timeline was a LOT longer with DVD hardware and software before they were discounted as deeply as we have already seen with these formats. $14 software and $98 hardware that produce a picture that looks THAT good WILL spark the market. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
W(TF) Posted November 4, 2007 Share Posted November 4, 2007 I read a blog post recently on the topic. Why I Just Bought an HD-DVD Player[sep 15/07, 4:33 PM]Despite all the claims that Blu-Ray is winning the format war based on current disc sales, I just bought a Toshiba A20 1080p HD-DVD and DVD up-converting player. That's where my money is and here's where my mouth is... Blu-Ray marginalized in 3 years, HD-DVD alive and well. Here's a synopsis of the/my arguments against Blu-Ray 1. Disc manufacturing is heavily prone to errors, some say the actual yield of good discs for a given batch is as low as 10%, meaning 90% are discarded. This leads to missed deadlines and high manufacturing costs. HD-DVD yields are as high as 90% on the other hand due to a simpler manufacturing process. 2. Due to the difficulty in manufacturing, this has led to a limited number of manufacturing plants, mostly owned and operated by Sony, hindering adoption. HD-DVDs can be manufactured in existing DVD plants. 3. Paramount and Dreamworks just switched from backing Blu-Ray to HD-DVD. 4. Discs themselves run a custom implementation of Java called BD-J (I think) which has proven to be difficult to program. The JVM is not standardised across devices either leading to high testing costs and buggy discs. The HD-DVD camp on the other hand has issued a "reference" device which all implementations must adhere to, regardless of manufacturer. 5. Disc manufacturing is rumored to have been subsidized by Sony to offset costs to the studios. These subsidies are now running out, causing studios to jump ship. 6. PS3 sales are grinding to a halt due to a lack of games. This is hindering sales of Blu-Ray players effectively. Xbox 360's HD-DVD add-on player is a paltry $150 at the moment. 7. Dedicated players for HD-DVD are as cheap as $200 now whereas Blu-Ray players are still up around $400. 8. Consumers are growing unhappy with discs that hang or crash the player. 9. Interactive content on HD-DVD seems to be far richer than Blu-Ray. The ethernet port is mandatory on the HD-DVD spec, yielding more opportunities to link back to movie websites and drive revenue for the studios. 10. Blu-Ray is Sony and you can't trust Sony. They've a long history of screwing formats up and the consumers along with them. Last year they were exposed as having deployed rootkits in certain CDs which would essentially hose your operating system. Have you forgotten Mini-discs, memory sticks, ATRAC and of course Beta-max? 11. What about those exclusive Blu-Ray only movies? Well did you know a large number of Blu-Ray only movies are available overseas in HD-DVD format? They play perfectly fine in US HD-DVD players since HD-DVD is not regional like DVD (I think). Folks are saying ultimately downloads will win out over both formats. I'm sure this will be true but do you know how much bandwidth it'll take to download a 15GB movie? A lot. More than you'll have in the next 3 years.So for now I'm hitching my wagon to HD-DVD. I also got 2 free HD-DVDs (Batman & 300) from Best Buy for purchasing and there'll be 5 more free in the mail via Toshiba. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ZenLunatic Posted November 5, 2007 Author Share Posted November 5, 2007 $14 software and $98 hardware that produce a picture that looks THAT good WILL spark the market. Thanks for answering my questions. I am getting spoiled with my digital and HD reception, I dont like low res anymore. I cant believe I now look at my dvds and say, "man the quality is kinda bad". A few years back, I thought it was about as clear as can be. I only have a Samsung 1080i LCD too, I wonder how much better a 1080p is. The $98 hardware happened on the Walmart secret sale and seems like Toshiba has an under $200 HD-DVD player out which is totally affordable for the quality you are getting. I think software is no problem. Discs are can be created so cheaply especially when mass produced. I really want to jump in and get a Hi-Def player but forcing myself to wait longer. As I said before, I see this Christmas season as the big battle in this war. There maybe a huge swing in sales to one side that will effect future of the video hi-def format. I think the players that play both are the safe bet, but you are paying for it. I wonder if they can make a disc one side HD and the other side normal DVD, like you see some dual side discs doing with WS and Full Screen. I dont see the normal DVDs going away anytime soon, so this could be away for the studios to do one package movie. Software seems so easy and cheap to produce, I guess they can easily package 2 discs in one too. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
c53x12 Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 Totally unscientific, but based on specs and cost, I'd have chosen HD-DVD, but based on buzz, it seems like Blu-Ray is gaining the edge. Or maybe Sony is just spending gobs of cash to make it seem that way. Either way, if the perception exists that a format is winning, then that format is likely to win. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
a.miller Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 a.miller... Don't think that there was any malice or insult of any type intended!!None taken. I apologize if my post sounded accusatory; I realize that you, also, were only intending to help Quote Link to post Share on other sites
squarewave Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 I wonder if they can make a disc one side HD and the other side normal DVD, like you see some dual side discs doing with WS and Full Screen. They already exist... How's that for instant gratification!! HD-DVD has released several titles in a "combo" format... These are just some of the titles packaged this way. 16 Blocks300Army of DarkessBourne UltimatumBreachDazed and ConfusedGood Night and Good LuckFast Times at Ridgemont HighHot FuzzJet Li's FearlessMusic & LyricsLand of The DeadNew Orleans Concert: Knocked UpOceans' ThirteenSuperman ReturnsTMNT (Teenage Mutant.. heroes in a halfshell)We Are Marshall If you go to Amazon and put "Combo HD DVD" in the search, you will see a lot more... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ZenLunatic Posted November 5, 2007 Author Share Posted November 5, 2007 They already exist... How's that for instant gratification!! HD-DVD has released several titles in a "combo" format... If you go to Amazon and put "Combo HD DVD" in the search, you will see a lot more... Good idea, but it seems it is more expensive this way. They need to only have the combo release and charge normal price for the time being.Then eventually fade off the standard dvd side once its more widespread. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
squarewave Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 This is exactly why I stay away from that place, and why you guys should do the same... http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9812929-7.html It's like our stupid little industry has it's own uber-geek hardcore, willing to incite the online equivalent of a soccer riot over their favorite HD disc player format. If I were not so completely disgusted with this, I would probably be laughing at it. If anyone has any questions, pose them here and I will do my best. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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