Guitar Tone Help

[UrbanJesus]

Ok so heres the deal.

 

I am primarily an acoustic guitar player, but recently have been putting together a new band where I get to plug in one of my few great guitars and rock out a little.

 

Because the world of electric guitar is so new to me, I am kindof lost on what to do for tone.

 

I have all sorts of great equipment to work with, and on top of that, am willing to spend more on stuff I could really use.

 

The band is a three piece (bass, drums, and guitar), so I am trying to find a happy medium with a not-quite rhythm, not quite lead tone. I will not be doing any face ripping solos and really the only fancy stuff I do is like bass note walk-downs (e.g. Hate it Here).

 

So really Id just love tips and pointers on what to try and what to steer clear of in terms of different tones. I really would appreciate some expert gearhead advice.

 

And now to brag about what I have to work with;

 

'69 Barney Kessel Original

'57 Reissue American Strat

Reverend Hitman

'69 Tele Thinline Reissue

 

The Barney Kessel will probably be my primary guitar for performing, and maybe throw in the strat too.

 

And I know you guys probably hate me for even asking tone questions with that lineup, but I havent gotten the Barney Kessel yet (it arrives Thursday!!!), and the strat is being setup and modified to include the 5-switch so I havent gotten to play them yet.

 

I will be playing through the handwired AC15 limited edition amp head that came out this year that has the EF86 head as well.

 

For Miscellaneous gear I have this -

 

Prunes and Custard (which Im really not sure how to use to maximize potential - any advice?)

EH Holy Grail (this is my fav pedal and I use when I play solo acoustic as well)

Addrock Fuzz Smile Pedal

Digitech Delay

Digitech Chorus

Boss Compressor/Sustainer

Ibanez Tubescreamer TS808

 

I was also wondering if it might be worth it to get some sort of octave pedal specifically for walk downs a la Hate it Here?

 

I mostly have been playing the Reverend through the AC15 head with a little spring reverb from the Holy Grail, and maybe the P&C as an OD pedal on occasion and havent been satisfied with the tone Im getting at all. Im sure all that will change with the guitars Ive got coming, but I still wanted to get your input.

 

Sorry about all the questions, but I know no one knows gear better then Wilco lovers and a lot of the gear I have bought is based solely on the stuff I have read in this forum.

 

Basically I am opening up the floor to vast discussion about tone and what you do to create different types of tones/effects etc. Like I said, I am new to it and wanting to learn.

 

Thanks so much for all the tips guys.

[In a little rowboat]

Based on the amount and relative cost of your gear...i am guessing that you can afford my consulting fee on tone...

 

j/king

 

jobu

[the_fliz1]

After reading your list of gear I think that I actually hate you at this moment. In my humble opinion, with a 3 piece it is generally good to have a guitar and set-up that has good low end. A beefy guitar like the Kessel will definitely help that. A trio can sound kind of weak and sparse if the guitar player doesn't know what he is doing. I have seen good trio's that use Strats' but generally the good ones are the ones that have monster players. Like Clapton, who still uses one when he performs with Cream. But needless to say, he is Clapton, so there ya go. I haven't personally seen a Tele used in a 3 piece and am kind of suspicious as to how well the sound would work out, especially if it's louder music. I have never heard a Hitman played, but from what I gather they are similar to a Tele. in sound. Since you said that you are willing to spend more money I am just going to throw this out there - A good Les Paul will solve any tone problems you may have. Granted I would suggest a Les Paul for anybodies problems, musical or not, but that is just me.

[UrbanJesus]

I was kindof fearing that using a good low end would make the three piece completely low ended. But I guess you are saying more to have a good low end - not TOO much low end.

 

A trio can sound kind of weak and sparse if the guitar player doesn't know what he is doing.

 

Thats another thing I am worried about, cause Im certainly not the best electric guitar player, and its really a whole new world I am trying to figure out.

 

Any pointers or tricks I should know?

 

I am so used to playing acoustic, sometimes I feel completely lost with all that sound coming back at me.

 

Any good songs to learn electric on that might help with my playing? I already learned Hate it Here for that purpose and it did help me get started.

 

And Im sorry you hate me. I hope someday you will love me.

[Scott Gyrrr]

A couple of thoughts;

The sound of your band mates will play a big part in the sound you yourself should go for. To be honest I think youll just have to spend the time together playing!

-The ac15 shouldn't make things bass heavy so don't worry about that.

-What gear do the others have? The drummers cymbals will affect your high frequencies and of course the bass will affect your low end. It's usually 3 to 400hz that makes things muddy. All of these have got to fit around the singer, because hey you can change your amp, but they can't change vocal cords!

-If you practice in a smallish space there will likely be a build up of bass due to boundary effects and room modes (unless the room is acoustically treated) So when you hit the stage the sound may feel a little 'thin'. try and practice in a larger space, at least occasionally, to see how its gonna be different.

-Coming from acoustic you may be tempted to try and fill up every space in the music and at least with a three piece you sorta can, but the great thing with a band is you don't always have to.

-Thinking about it now most guitarist in three piece bands tend to have a consistent or signature sound. Think A.M (even though there is a fair bit of lead work) Nirvana SRV blah blah blah. At some point you have to stop fussing over the sound and focus on what the music is trying to say.

 

Probably one guitar is going to speak to you more than the others so don't be afraid to give the rest away to me!

[the_fliz1]

I was kindof fearing that using a good low end would make the three piece completely low ended. But I guess you are saying more to have a good low end - not TOO much low end.

 

Exactly. I can't remember where I heard it but I heard someone say that in a band with one guitar, the guitarist has 2 jobs essentially. Playing the normal guitar plus they have to try and keep up the rhythm parts also.

 

 

Thats another thing I am worried about, cause Im certainly not the best electric guitar player, and its really a whole new world I am trying to figure out.

 

Dude, you already have half the battle won. I can't tell you how many times I wished I had started out playing on an acoustic guitar. Starting out on an electric can make you lazy. I know it did me. A lot of times with all of the volume and effects it can have the tendency to hide the mistakes that a player can make, and when you are learning to play that is not a good thing. I had a terrible time with not letting the notes ring properly and to cut off a lot of the notes I was playing. When I started on an acoustic I found it doesn't hide the crap that you can get away with on an electric. To get good intonation you really have to pay attention on an acoustic because you can really hear the subtle differences. So by playing acoustic you probably already have good form and finger placement. Playing acoustic first will make you a better electric player.

 

Any pointers or tricks I should know?

Practice, Practice some more, watch some of your favorite players and pay attention the way that they play to pick up little pointers, oh yeah, did I mention practice?

 

I am so used to playing acoustic, sometimes I feel completely lost with all that sound coming back at me.

If the noise is a problem, start out playing at a lower volume until you get used to it and then start turning it up a little.

 

Any good songs to learn electric on that might help with my playing? I already learned Hate it Here for that purpose and it did help me get started.

 

And Im sorry you hate me. I hope someday you will love me.

 

It depends on what you like to listen to. I'm sure a person could learn a lot from players like Steve Vai or Joe Satriani, but if you are like me and don't care for the virtuoso type stuff you are not going to be that interested and probably not learn a whole lot. I would rather hear one note bended just right than hear a 100 notes in 5 seconds. Don't get me wrong I have mad respect for those guys and what they can do but it doesn't give me goosebumps like listening to Hendrix or Duane Allman. I had and still have a really hard time playing other peoples music for some reason. Probably because I don't have the use of my middle finger on my fret hand and have to figure out different ways to play a lot of the chords. But guys that inspired me that I paid attention to are Mark Ford (one of the guitarists from the Black Crowes), Joe Bonamassa, he is a good example of a guy that plays in a trio that holds down both ends of the guitar. Of course he has been playing since he was like 4 and was opening up for BB King when he was 11. Here is a link to a video of him on You Tube -

, David Gilmor from Pink Floyd, and a guy like Jade Puget from AFI ( I know that sounds cheesy and I'm not the biggest fan of AFI but he writes some really good chord progressions.).My best advice is just to play what feels right and what you have fun playing. I'm not saying not to push yourself and to try and learn new stuff and not to try and take different things from different styles, but if you don't have fun there really isn't any use in playing. All this is just my opinion and I'm sure you will hear a lot of different advice. What ever you do just have fun doing it.

[deepseacatfish]

Prunes and Custard (which Im really not sure how to use to maximize potential - any advice?)

Send me this and I'll let you know--I would love to have one Seriously though, I'm under the impression that these are especially good for creating really out there sounds, so if you're not looking for crazy sonic color this may not be that useful. I've heard they're great in tandem with an E-Bow, but you can also probably get some more subtle warbly distorted sounds with it on a lower setting, maybe just play around.

 

Trio's definitely have the potential to sound weak, but there's a couple things you can do to aid that. Yes, a strat is going to sound thinner in the mix of things, but through the right combination of things (and the Holy Grail will certainly help here) it won't sound weak, making sure to push the amp will definitely help.

 

One thing to consider is using sparseness as an effect in and of itself, consider the opening to Radio Cure space and silence can be just as effective as having lots of notes. Try reducing what you're playing down to it's most basic elements of pitch (root, 3rd, 5th of a chord, and then maybe a coloring note like a 7th) and rhythm...then try and rearrange how you'd normally play the elements. If you don't feel as confident on the guitar let the bass player take more of the melodic lead and play more of a harmonic, complimentary role, it could lead to interesting sounds. Also, I always suggest paying close attention to the drummer (the better they are the more help this will be), try following them rather than the other way around.

 

Also, don't hesitate to solo with combinations of dyads and triads instead of single note runs, this will give you a little more "fullness" without relegating you to just a rhythm guitar part. It can also create a more colored sound because you get the interplay of the two sets of overtones against each other.

[jff]

I haven't personally seen a Tele used in a 3 piece and am kind of suspicious as to how well the sound would work out, especially if it's louder music.

 

Tele trios, off the top of my head:

 

The Police

Minutemen

Firehose

Mike Watt (when Tom Watson is the guitarist)

PJ Harvey

Rush (only on certain songs on recent tours)

Any number of trios Bill Frisell plays with

 

Teles can work quite well in a trio. A humbucker equipped guitar will probably be easier to work with, but I wouldn't discount the Tele without first trying it out.

[UrbanJesus]

Thanks for all the really great advice guys, seriously.

 

You guys rock.

[a.miller]

If you're gonna be using the Barney Kessel the most, I'd keep your pickups on the middle setting. Maybe roll off your treble pickup to about 70% of the volume your rhythm pickup is at, and also roll your treble tone off a little bit. I find, when using an ES-335, that if I'm playing more rhythm these settings work pretty well.

 

Then, if you need to pick some notes, you can just flip down to the treble pickup and get a little extra sparkle to your tone.

 

Quick note on the Prunes and Custard -- I might avoid this as a 3 piece. I almost never use mine live; just recording.