The Big 3

[cryptique]

Collective exhale - for now - in Detroit today.

...until April or so, when that money's gone and the hand-wringing begins anew.

 

Kiss off another seventeen billion taxpayer dollars, everyone!

[IATTBYB]

In the end we'd be healthier if the auto industry were allowed to collapse. As a nation we might finally have an impetus to move away from a service oriented economy that will ultimately destroy us.

No offense, but this makes absolutely no sense. The auto industry is primarily a component of a manufacturing oriented economy, not a service oriented economy. How the collapse of the auto industry will make for a healthier economy is beyond my comprehension. Unless of course you mean we will all be healthier because we will have to walk and/or bike everywhere.

[Spawn's dad]

Because bailing out that which should sustain itself makes sense?

 

Allowing it to fail makes sense because we've allowed our MFGs (and most of our customer service and tech jobs) to be exported. Our auto industry is a giant fail. And until we're forced to recreate how we do things there's no hope. It's not a competitive industry. Giving them billions of dollars to flush only puts off the inevitable. We need to have our hand forced so genuine change can occur. Until we actually start to produce things here on a large scale at competitive prices (read cheaper labor and mfging) we'll just keep repeating these cycles.

[MattZ]

...until April or so, when that money's gone and the hand-wringing begins anew.

 

Kiss off another seventeen billion taxpayer dollars, everyone!

 

I know you don't mean it this way but you make it sound as if the money just disappears. As in, it's gone. When in actuality, it allows for these companies to continue paying their employees, their suppliers, etc. We aren't just flushing 17BN dollars down the toilet. People will absolutely benefit from this.

[Spawn's dad]

Flushed. As in wasted. What have they done to justify the handout that others can't get?

[MattZ]

Flushed. As in wasted. What have they done to justify the handout that others can't get?

 

Your question has nothing to do with your statement that precedes it. The answer to your question may be nothing. That doesnt mean the money was flushed/wasted. Taxpayers pay taxes. Taxpayers' jobs are being saved (temporarily). Taxpayers that make supplies for car companies are being saved (temporarily). Money spent isn't money deposited into a black hole.

[lamradio]

Your question has nothing to do with your statement that precedes it. The answer to your question may be nothing. That doesnt mean the money was flushed/wasted. Taxpayers pay taxes. Taxpayers' jobs are being saved (temporarily). Taxpayers that make supplies for car companies are being saved (temporarily). Money spent isn't money deposited into a black hole.

 

That's right. It's basically just buying time so the auto companies can get their shit together.. I don't agree with bail outs, but they are there as an absolute last resort to save our country from a meltdown. And most people don't realize how serious that is..

[Spawn's dad]

Your question has nothing to do with your statement that precedes it. The answer to your question may be nothing. That doesnt mean the money was flushed/wasted. Taxpayers pay taxes. Taxpayers' jobs are being saved (temporarily). Taxpayers that make supplies for car companies are being saved (temporarily). Money spent isn't money deposited into a black hole.

 

Sorry

 

Flushed. As in wasted. And, besides, what have they done to deserve to get a bailout that others can't get.

 

Bottom line is if the majority opinion is to help folks hand the cash to those effected in extended benefits and such. Most of this money will go to trying to prop up these companies for sustainability, but given their uncompetitive wage and production costs it simply can't be done. That money will be wasted. And it's money that could go to use in more helpful ways.

[lamradio]

Sorry

 

Flushed. As in wasted. And, besides, what have they done to deserve to get a bailout that others can't get.

 

It's not that they deserve it more.. Believe me, I wish my company was getting a bail-out, instead of outsourcing more and more jobs every day to India (including possibly mine), but that'll never happen.. It's because if the auto companies go down, this country very well could go down with them..

[ZenLunatic]

I know you don't mean it this way but you make it sound as if the money just disappears. As in, it's gone. When in actuality, it allows for these companies to continue paying their employees, their suppliers, etc. We aren't just flushing 17BN dollars down the toilet. People will absolutely benefit from this.

 

People will benefit from this and in the spirit of Christmas, it is a good gesture to all the innocent victims. Let the companies stay alive a little longer.

 

But when it comes to finance of the country, its a waste and a loss and we will pay for it later.

[MattZ]

Bottom line is if the majority opinion is to help folks hand the cash to those effected in extended benefits and such. Most of this money will go to trying to prop up these companies for sustainability, but given their uncompetitive wage and production costs it simply can't be done. That money will be wasted. And it's money that could go to use in more helpful ways.

 

Not sure I agree with you. This isn't an indirect handout to the workers and suppliers that would be more efficiently accomplished by giving it to them directly. This is an attempt to prevent a domino effect of unthinkable proportions. You may disagree with it, and it may fail, and it may fail because the industry is so broken it can't be fixed, but even in that scenario, I dont see how the money is wasted. In the short term, at the very least, it is a measure that saves jobs. In the long term, hopefully, it is a measure that is looked back on as the first step in a retooling of the industry. But even if that doesn't happen, you are still spending money to save jobs now, and worst case, it's an indirect welfare check to workers and suppliers. Even then, I dont see how it's a waste. I think you have to at least try.

[lamradio]

Not sure I agree with you. This isn't an indirect handout to the workers and suppliers that would be more efficiently accomplished by giving it to them directly. This is an attempt to prevent a domino effect of unthinkable proportions. You may disagree with it, and it may fail, and it may fail because the industry is so broken it can't be fixed, but even in that scenario, I dont see how the money is wasted. In the short term, at the very least, it is a measure that saves jobs. In the long term, hopefully, it is a measure that is looked back on as the first step in a retooling of the industry. But even if that doesn't happen, you are still spending money to save jobs now, and worst case, it's an indirect welfare check to workers and suppliers. Even then, I dont see how it's a waste. I think you have to at least try.

 

I wouldn't normally agree with things like this.. If you know me, I'm more of a moderate conservative and I am against free handouts. But this is an incredibly dire situation, and again a lot of people don't realize how dire it is..... We do have to atleast try it.. It's a last resort.

[Spawn's dad]

Not sure I agree with you. This isn't an indirect handout to the workers and suppliers that would be more efficiently accomplished by giving it to them directly. This is an attempt to prevent a domino effect of unthinkable proportions. You may disagree with it, and it may fail, and it may fail because the industry is so broken it can't be fixed, but even in that scenario, I dont see how the money is wasted. In the short term, at the very least, it is a measure that saves jobs. In the long term, hopefully, it is a measure that is looked back on as the first step in a retooling of the industry. But even if that doesn't happen, you are still spending money to save jobs now, and worst case, it's an indirect welfare check to workers and suppliers. Even then, I dont see how it's a waste. I think you have to at least try.

 

Well, if ones point of view is that all that's left to do is bury the coffin than money that would go to these companies would be better served to going to the people in some form or another. Any penny that didn't would be 'a waste.' I don't fathom how they save this. While they're saving jobs money is going to support other things that while saving jobs aren't really helping people. And in the end that's going to have been more money that could have gone to directly helping people. These are people that are going to need new jobs, in new industries, and ideally ones that we won't allow corporations to move to some third world country for labor that's a fraction of the cost it is here.

 

Anyway, it's irrelevant...they got the money, so now we'll see what happens.

[ZenLunatic]

"Bush attached some conditions. The loans would be called back if the automakers cannot prove they are viable by March 31, an administration official said."

 

Let's see how they will get people to buy GM or Chrysler in the next 3 months thats gonna prove something. The cars havent changed at all and the economy is only getting worse.

[cryptique]

I know you don't mean it this way but you make it sound as if the money just disappears. As in, it's gone. When in actuality, it allows for these companies to continue paying their employees, their suppliers, etc. We aren't just flushing 17BN dollars down the toilet. People will absolutely benefit from this.

Actually, I do mean it that way. These companies are likely to fail regardless of the billions they're about to receive. If all those billions do is extend their lives a few months, then yes, that money was wasted/disappeared/is gone.

 

You may disagree with it, and it may fail, and it may fail because the industry is so broken it can't be fixed, but even in that scenario, I dont see how the money is wasted.

You answered your own question here: because the industry is so broken it can't be fixed. If that's the case, then there's no point in pumping several billion taxpayer dollars into it.

 

Mine is a cynical view, to be sure. We'll just have to wait and see. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think I am.

[ZenLunatic]

"The Most Socialist Time Of The Year"

 

[tugmoose]

[tugmoose]

Great. Now they're using our money to try to entice people to buy cars nobody wants. Looks like business as usual.

 

GM offers 0-percent financing to boost sales

 

By DAN STRUMPF, AP Auto Writer

[caliber66]

I'm not sure how this 0-percent thing is all that bad. Them selling cars at 0% is better than them not selling cars at 5%, and makes it more likely that they will not lose (or lose less) money. Assuming the cars have already been ordered/built, etc.

[tugmoose]

Well, the only reason they can offer 0 percent is that they got 100 percent of our $5 billion. That doesn't strike me as a sustainable business model.

 

I just thought the bail out money was there to help the companies re-invent themselves, not to help sell the old crap.

[Duck-Billed Catechist]

GMAC got money from the TARP fund.

 

The TARP fund was supposed to loosen up the credit market.

 

GMAC is now lending money. That is to say, they are offering credit.

[tugmoose]

And that's what I've always loved about the bailout: Giving banks our money so they can lend us our money and collect interest from us.

[Duck-Billed Catechist]

It does seem a bit backward. Ah, well.

[MattZ]

Not to mention, cheap credit is what got us in this mess to begin with. Can't get much cheaper than 0.

[Duck-Billed Catechist]

Well, was the bailout supposed to produce expensive credit? I mean, at least they're lending back our money without charging interest