Now I remember why I was an independent all those years.

[ih8music]

White House appears ready to drop 'public option'

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_health_care_overhaul

[LouieB]

This totally sucks, except you have it slightly wrong.

 

The reason the Democratic White House is thinking of dropping the public option is that the "independents" are turning on the public option because the right wing is telling so many lies about health care reform. I don't disagree that the Dems are being spineless, but those individual voters who identify as Democratic are NOT the majority of people and therefore blow with the wind.

 

Remember there would be no talk about public option or any other type of reform (preexisting conditions, etc.) if Sarah Palin and McCain were on office. Every Democratic administration since just before I was born (1949) has been talking about health care reform, but the Republicans never do. If it doesn't happen this time, we have to keep our eyes on the prize rather than blame our compatriots. This is something the right wing knows, but the left wing consistantly forgets.

 

OH and yea, it was LBJ who got Medicare and Medicaid passed, middle of the road Democrat.

 

LoieB

[ih8music]

Louie, I understand your points, but the fact that the republicans are worse than the dems isn't making me feel any better.

 

It'd be one thing if they were changing course because of honest debate, discussion and compromise - but it seems like they're bowing to the pressure of a small mob of people who are angry at the idea of "death panels" and socialized medicine and that the government is somehow "taking their country away" (whatever the hell that means).

 

And what's most frustrating about it all is not just that they're being spineless - but they're showing political incompetence here. Did they not think this would happen? The Clinton plan in the '90s fell victim to similar attacks - they should have expected that tenfold (which is pretty much what they got).

 

Part of me wants to believe this is just a scare tactic to get people like me fired up and involved, and that things will get worked out come Sept-Oct when the final legislation is written - but I have a hard time believing that.

 

ugh. maybe I should start supporting Green candidates (something I said I'd never do). Which is worse - "throwing away" your vote on a party/candidate who cannot win a major election, or throwing it away by voting for one that backs down to pressure, despite having huge majorities in congress?

[Tweedling]

Would anyone suggest Medicare is a success? Isn't it bankrupt?

[uncool2pillow]

While the extremists (Palin, Beck, et. al.) are telling lies about health care, the truth is the reform that's been put forward is incredibly expensive. When Obama says that the options are one of the Dems' plans or the status quo, he is giving us a false option. There are many reforms that could pass (tort reform, regulations that prevent insurance companies from canceling policies, etc.), do a lot of good, and not further bankrupt our nation.

 

By dumping the public option, Obama may ensure some other quality reforms can pass.

[buffy3kins]

The only idea I've seen that has a chance of working is having some private coops like the farm and electric coops in rural area. I'm from a small town in SE Kansas and own some farmland. The farm and electric coops reaaly work because they're user owned. We wouldn't have much food on our tables without them. Such an idea in health care would probably work because the owners would want to keep everyone else on the up and up to keep from going bankrupt and even have plenty of money in savings with it when people have sudden catastrophic illnesses or injuries.

[Good Old Neon]

By the time this thing passes, assuming it even passes, it’ll be neutered down to one “free” tartar screening per calendar year, and a coupon for 50 cents off any already marked down tin of Sucrets. And all those hysterical elderly folks who are, right now, receiving socialized healthcare via what’s commonly referred to as – fucking Medicaid – can rest easy knowing they, and they alone, are receiving care on the tax payers dime. Fucking socialists.

 

As is the case with everything else in this increasingly retarded country, the three-ring circus sideshow has eclipsed anything resembling reasonable debate – and in the end, we will receive exactly what we deserve – nothing.

 

“When you're born you get a ticket to the freak show. When you're born in America, you get a front row seat.” – George Carlin said that, and it might just be the single most accurate statement ever uttered regarding this country.

[LouieB]

Louie, I understand your points, but the fact that the republicans are worse than the dems isn't making me feel any better.

 

It'd be one thing if they were changing course because of honest debate, discussion and compromise - but it seems like they're bowing to the pressure of a small mob of people who are angry at the idea of "death panels" and socialized medicine and that the government is somehow "taking their country away" (whatever the hell that means).

 

And what's most frustrating about it all is not just that they're being spineless - but they're showing political incompetence here. Did they not think this would happen? The Clinton plan in the '90s fell victim to similar attacks - they should have expected that tenfold (which is pretty much what they got).

 

Part of me wants to believe this is just a scare tactic to get people like me fired up and involved, and that things will get worked out come Sept-Oct when the final legislation is written - but I have a hard time believing that.

 

ugh. maybe I should start supporting Green candidates (something I said I'd never do). Which is worse - "throwing away" your vote on a party/candidate who cannot win a major election, or throwing it away by voting for one that backs down to pressure, despite having huge majorities in congress?

Supporting local Green candidates is not a bad idea at some level. I do it. On the national level it makes far less sense. I think this is about getting people fired up however. Obama is doing it to the gay community over DOMA and Don't ask. Nothing is easy in this country (maybe any country, but some have figured out that universal healthcare is a good thing so I don't know....) and this is among the worst. I don't really believe that Obama is playing Chess on this, I believe he wants something to hang his hat on, despite being stabbed in the back by more Dems than is believable. This is a crazy and very fucked up situation, but not the end of the story.

 

While the extremists (Palin, Beck, et. al.) are telling lies about health care, the truth is the reform that's been put forward is incredibly expensive. When Obama says that the options are one of the Dems' plans or the status quo, he is giving us a false option. There are many reforms that could pass (tort reform, regulations that prevent insurance companies from canceling policies, etc.), do a lot of good, and not further bankrupt our nation.

 

By dumping the public option, Obama may ensure some other quality reforms can pass.

I was discussing this at a party last night. If this congress can do ONE THING, which is making it against the law to refuse insurance to people with pre-existing conditions, we will have way more folks insured, but not enough. As someone with a pre-existing condition I have never had this problem, but I could in the future as could my daughter, etc.

 

None of this means that a public option won't be possible in the future, but something has to give this year.

 

edit- I do believe the death of the public option has been pre-mature.

 

LouieB

[kwall]

. . . it seems like they're bowing to the pressure of a small mob of people who are angry at the idea of "death panels" and socialized medicine . . .

it might seem like they're bowing to the pressure of a small mob, but they're actually bowing to the pressure of a majority of their constituents, which is how it's supposed to work.

 

and that the government is somehow "taking their country away" (whatever the hell that means).

it means moving farther away from capitalism and moving ever closer to socialism.

[ikol]

My evil twin returns!

[kwall]

not evil twin - alter ego. big difference.

[Tweedling]

Come on people, say it with me, "YES WE CAN!"

 

(Warm and fuzzy feelings)

[ikol]

But my alter ego would actually be me. Either I'm extremely insane, or you're a separate person.

[Good Old Neon]

it might seem like they're bowing to the pressure of a small mob, but they're actually bowing to the pressure of a majority of their constituents, which is how it's supposed to work.

 

And you know this because you’ve actually sat down and discussed this initiative with the majority of constituents? Politicians would be wise to ignore those who believe we are on the cusp of creating government sponsored death panels – in all matters, not just those that relate to healthcare. The debate has been hijacked by morons, morons who, if asked, probably couldn’t even tell you what, exactly, maketh “socialism” so downright evil – they’d probably just point to Russia or like, Rocky IV or something. Sometimes, and this, I think, is one of those times, constituents need to be told to just go sit down and shut the fuck up already.

 

it means moving farther away from capitalism and moving ever closer to socialism.

 

Perhaps you haven’t been paying attention, but we’ve been subsidizing capitalism with help from taxpayer dollars for pretty much the entirety of its existence – including the healthcare industry. It, capitalism had itself a little break down not too long ago, and I do not recall the banking/financial/auto industry and/or Wall Street decrying socialism’s evils as they were cashing their billion dollar welfare checks. We have an opportunity to make some much needed changes in this country, but rather than do so as well informed adults, we’re going to proceed in a way that has become increasingly common as of late, like tragically ill informed, fearful little dipshits who would rather vote against their interests, than educate themselves.

[Good Old Neon]

But my alter ego would actually be me. Either I'm extremely insane, or you're a separate person.

 

Durden? Mr. Tyler Durden?

[ikol]

who? me?

 

No, kwall. People here used to always accuse us of being the same person.

 

It, capitalism had itself a little break down not too long ago, and I do not recall the banking/financial/auto industry and/or Wall Street decrying socialism’s evils as they were cashing their billion dollar welfare checks.

 

That's because no one hates capitalism more than big businesses. It's much easier to spend a little money lobbying the government to pass favorable policies than it is to actually compete. Furthering socializing the government only makes such rent seeking more prevalent.

 

Durden? Mr. Tyler Durden?

 

Would you like to buy some soap?

[kwall]

And you know this because you’ve actually sat down and discussed this initiative with the majority of constituents?

no, i'm just going by the reported poll numbers.

 

Sometimes, and this, I think, is one of those times, constituents need to be told to just go sit down and shut the fuck up already.

ahhh. smells like freedom.

 

i can't imagine why people are afraid of their country being taken away.

 

We have an opportunity to make some much needed changes in this country, but rather than do so as well informed adults, we’re going to proceed in a way that has become increasingly common as of late, like tragically ill informed, fearful little dipshits who would rather vote against their interests, than educate themselves.

you guys control all levels of government and, still, it's everyone else's fault.

[Tweedling]

Seriously, man -- atleast the opposition is being invited to these things. When Dubya had these town hall things, it was invite only. Any sniff of opposition was stopped at the door.

 

And what poll numbers? Something from Fox News? Cite your source.

 

Does any rational person actually believe that we're careening toward socialism? And that their country is being taken away? No these are just hateful people. Who prolly are in opposition to Obama cuz hes black.

 

I agree that Dems need to step up and not be spineless and show some balls.

Because he's black? The old race card. It never gets old. Does it?

[jakobnicholas]

From the L.A. Times:

 

Poll: 49% disapprove of Obama's handling of healthcare policy

A new Gallup poll shows 43% in support of the president. Findings are essentially unchanged over the last three weeks.

 

By Mark Silva

August 12, 2009

 

Reporting from Washington - The vocal few standing up at summer town-hall meetings with complaints about the president's proposed healthcare reforms aren't the only ones with concerns, polling shows.

 

Slightly more Americans disapprove of the president's handling of healthcare than those who approve, the Gallup Poll reports this morning -- with findings essentially unchanged during the last three weeks of an increasingly volatile public debate.

 

The latest measure of public support for the president's initiative follows weeks of action by congressional committees in the House, an ongoing debate in a key Senate committee and a personal campaign by President Obama to build public support for an overhaul of the nation's health insurance.

 

Nearly half of those surveyed -- 49% -- said they disapproved of Obama's "handling of healthcare policy." And 43% told Gallup's interviewers that they approved.

 

The findings of the Aug. 6-9 survey are virtually unchanged from those of a Gallup poll conducted in mid-July, when 50% said they disapproved and 44% said they approved.

 

Since the latest survey was conducted, the president has embarked on a stepped-up campaign for public support, with a town-hall-style appearance Tuesday in Portsmouth, N.H., and two more planned: Friday in Montana and over the weekend in Colorado. The stops are part of a Western tour during which Obama and his family also will visit two crown jewels of the national parks system, Yellowstone and the Grand Canyon.

 

Despite the efforts to gain support, there appears to be a narrow but persistent gap in public backing for the healthcare reforms that the president is pressing Congress to approve by the end of the year.

 

The debate also has been punctuated by confrontational town-hall meetings conducted by members of Congress who have returned home for the August congressional recess. With House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-San Francisco) and Majority Leader Steny Hoyer (D-Md.) calling some of the disruptions of those meetings "simply un-American," the president has set out to quell what he has called "outlandish rumors" about what his plans include.

 

Americans appear evenly divided on the broader question of Obama's handling of the economy in the latest Gallup survey. And the president receives a higher grade for his handling of foreign affairs: 53% approval, 40% disapproval.

 

The president's overall public job-approval stands at 54% in the latest results of a daily tracking survey that Gallup conducts, an average of the last three days' polling. That is down, however, from a high of 69% that Gallup found in the weeks after Obama's inauguration in January.

 

Obama's job approval averaged 63% during the first six months of his presidency, Gallup has reported of its daily surveys.

 

The Gallup polling portrays a wide partisan divide in public opinion on the president's performance, with more than three-quarters of the Democrats voicing approval for Obama's handling of healthcare and just 10% of Republicans voicing approval.

 

The August survey on the president's handling of key domestic and foreign issues included 1,010 adults and carried a possible margin of error of plus or minus 4 percentage points.

[Atticus]

Obama is black?!

 

that changes everything.

[Good Old Neon]

From the L.A. Times:

 

Poll: 49% disapprove of Obama's handling of healthcare policy

A new Gallup poll shows 43% in support of the president. Findings are essentially unchanged over the last three weeks.

 

By Mark Silva

August 12, 2009

 

Reporting from Washington - The vocal few standing up at summer town-hall meetings with complaints about the president's proposed healthcare reforms aren't the only ones with concerns, polling shows.

 

Slightly more Americans disapprove of the president's handling of healthcare than those who approve, the Gallup Poll reports this morning -- with findings essentially unchanged during the last three weeks of an increasingly volatile public debate.

 

The latest measure of public support for the president's initiative follows weeks of action by congressional committees in the House, an ongoing debate in a key Senate committee and a personal campaign by President Obama to build public support for an overhaul of the nation's health insurance.

 

Nearly half of those surveyed -- 49% -- said they disapproved of Obama's "handling of healthcare policy." And 43% told Gallup's interviewers that they approved.

 

The findings of the Aug. 6-9 survey are virtually unchanged from those of a Gallup poll conducted in mid-July, when 50% said they disapproved and 44% said they approved.

 

Since the latest survey was conducted, the president has embarked on a stepped-up campaign for public support, with a town-hall-style appearance Tuesday in Portsmouth, N.H., and two more planned: Friday in Montana and over the weekend in Colorado. The stops are part of a Western tour during which Obama and his family also will visit two crown jewels of the national parks system, Yellowstone and the Grand Canyon.

 

Despite the efforts to gain support, there appears to be a narrow but persistent gap in public backing for the healthcare reforms that the president is pressing Congress to approve by the end of the year.

 

The debate also has been punctuated by confrontational town-hall meetings conducted by members of Congress who have returned home for the August congressional recess. With House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-San Francisco) and Majority Leader Steny Hoyer (D-Md.) calling some of the disruptions of those meetings "simply un-American," the president has set out to quell what he has called "outlandish rumors" about what his plans include.

 

Americans appear evenly divided on the broader question of Obama's handling of the economy in the latest Gallup survey. And the president receives a higher grade for his handling of foreign affairs: 53% approval, 40% disapproval.

 

The president's overall public job-approval stands at 54% in the latest results of a daily tracking survey that Gallup conducts, an average of the last three days' polling. That is down, however, from a high of 69% that Gallup found in the weeks after Obama's inauguration in January.

 

Obama's job approval averaged 63% during the first six months of his presidency, Gallup has reported of its daily surveys.

 

The Gallup polling portrays a wide partisan divide in public opinion on the president's performance, with more than three-quarters of the Democrats voicing approval for Obama's handling of healthcare and just 10% of Republicans voicing approval.

 

The August survey on the president's handling of key domestic and foreign issues included 1,010 adults and carried a possible margin of error of plus or minus 4 percentage points.

 

I'd like to see what the numbers would look like if people were asked their feelings regarding a nationalized tax payer funded healthcare system. This poll appears to tell us little more than that folks do not approve of the way the bill is being handled, and not the particulars.

[ikol]

Seriously, man -- atleast the opposition is being invited to these things. When Dubya had these town hall things, it was invite only. Any sniff of opposition was stopped at the door.

 

I guess my invitation got lost in the mail.

 

Does any rational person actually believe that we're careening toward socialism?

 

Yes. Not that this is a new thing. It's been going on at least since FDR.

 

No these are just hateful people. Who prolly are in opposition to Obama cuz hes black.

 

Does any rational person actually believe...nevermind.

 

I agree that Dems need to step up and not be spineless and show some balls.

 

That sort of thing got the last Democrat President in trouble.

[kwall]

Seriously, man -- atleast the opposition is being invited to these things. When Dubya had these town hall things, it was invite only. Any sniff of opposition was stopped at the door.

yeah. it works the same with obama.

 

And what poll numbers? Something from Fox News? Cite your source.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/122255/Amid-Debate-Obama-Approval-Rating-Healthcare-Steady.aspx

 

Does any rational person actually believe that we're careening toward socialism?

i fancy myself pretty rational and i believe we're halfway there already.

 

No these are just hateful people.

i love you.

[Atticus]

I'm serious. What else? Their country is being "taken from them". By some guy that half don't even think is an American. AND a MUSLIM!! ARRGGGHHH!!!! I honestly think so. If he was white, I think the tone would be different. This is to a level of hatred that is just unbelieveable to me in some ways.

 

Now if these old folks on socialized medicine Medicare reallllyyy wanted to get pissed why not protest the $$ to the banks that got us here in the first place, killing their retirement savings. Get pissed that Tim Geithner (sp?) keeps rolling over and giving more freedoms to banks where in a MUSLIM country, their hands woulda got chopped off.

 

And I am not in favor of elimiating Medicare, but it's free freakin health care that old people get. That I (an every one here) pay into. Make them pay for their own care. Dont let them their money into a trust so their kids can inhert the estate tax free, then suck off of my tax dollars to live in a nursing home. Throw 'em in the street.

 

oh my, this one is fantastic.

[Guest Speed Racer]

If he was white, I think the tone would be different.

 

Well 'they' certainly never accused HRC of being black, that's for damned sure! Glad she got a free pass during the campaign.

 

And I am not in favor of elimiating Medicare, but it's free freakin health care that old people get. That I (an every one here) pay into.

 

Didn't, like, old people pay into it, too?

 

I understand all of the people worrying about the virile, suave Muslim taking their country away from them, but I'm not following your line about the scheming geriatrics.