Now I remember why I was an independent all those years.

[LouieB]

That doesn't surprise me since they're both idiots. If anything destroys Medicare, it will be all the Baby Boomers refusing to die. But even that will probably destroy the rest of the government before it destroys Medicare.

You handing out the koolaid or what?

 

LouieB

[ikol]

You handing out the koolaid or what?

 

LouieB

 

Sorry, my comments were way out of line. There's no impending crisis with Social Security and Medicare. At least that's what Bernie Madoff told me.

[LouieB]

Sorry, my comments were way out of line. There's no impending crisis with Social Security and Medicare. At least that's what Bernie Madoff told me.

Of course there is a crisis...this is ALL a crisis, but those at your end of the political spectrum have been telling us we can't possibly have (fill in the blank...social security, medicare, medicaid, food stamps, the voting rights act, the civil rights act, gay marriage, a public option, you name it..) since the beginning of time. Don't do anything for anyone, let them do for themselves, let the pull themselves up by their bootstraps, let them die and get out of the way.

 

I understand your postion. This stuff is expensive and upsets the status quo. Kill the boomers, kill the blacks, kill the illegals, kill the gays...etc. etc.

 

LouieB

[ikol]

Of course there is a crisis...this is ALL a crisis, but those at your end of the political spectrum have been telling us we can't possibly have (fill in the blank...social security, medicare, medicaid, food stamps, the voting rights act, the civil rights act, gay marriage, a public option, you name it..) since the beginning of time. Don't do anything for anyone, let them do for themselves, let the pull themselves up by their bootstraps, let them die and get out of the way.

 

I'm just saying that we can't pay for those programs as they currently exist. Even with major tax increases, we're going to reach a point where there are 2 workers per retiree. There is no way that can work without major changes to SS/Medicare. Those programs were supposedly created as a safety net, not an entitlement. Most people didn't live past 65, and those that did were in no shape to provide for themselves. All of that has drastically changed, but the programs haven't changed with the demographics. And I know it's hard for someone on your end of the spectrum to comprehend, but government is not the only way to do good.

 

I understand your postion. This stuff is expensive and upsets the status quo. Kill the boomers, kill the blacks, kill the illegals, kill the gays...etc. etc.

 

This stuff is the status quo. But you clearly do understand my position. My next post was going to be about killing gay black boomers from Mexico, but you made my point more eloquently, so I'll spare everyone the redundancy.

[LouieB]

Yea, all those health insurance companies that barely get by really have all our best interests at heart...

 

And as someone who actually works for a government and sees the government in action I know that government can't do it all and I understand the demographics, etc. And yes all these programs could use a good dose of something.

 

Rather than continue this, I hope at some point you get some wisdom with your intelligence and some compassion with the profession you have chosen. Maybe you aren't the heartless bastard you portray yourself as here on the nameless facelss internet, but suggesting that people of my age just go die (and actually I have about 30 more years to go if I make it that long) is really kind of stupid and heartless. Actually the previous generation is still dying (I won't go into personal story on this....but I have one...) so actually you won't be really rid of us until you are middle aged yourself.

 

Meanwhile we are your bread and butter comrade. If you are going to be a doctor figure on us being your fucking meal ticket for the next 30 years and don't slip too many of us a mickey too often okay?

 

LouieB

[ikol]

Rather than continue this, I hope at some point you get some wisdom with your intelligence and some compassion with the profession you have chosen. Maybe you aren't the heartless bastard you portray yourself as here on the nameless facelss internet, but suggesting that people of my age just go die (and actually I have about 30 more years to go if I make it that long) is really kind of stupid and heartless. Actually the previous generation is still dying (I won't go into personal story on this....but I have one...) so actually you won't be really rid of us until you are middle aged yourself.

 

Sorry if you took it that way, but I wasn't suggesting anyone go die. I was just pointing out the obvious (admittedly in my own insensitive sarcastic way): that people live longer now than they did when FDR was president. My dad is a baby boomer, so I'm obviously not advocating that his generation just go off and die. And maybe one day you will understand that a person shows compassion through their actions, not their voting record.

[M. (hristine]

Maybe instead of squandering fiscal and human resources warring in far away places in an attempt control a rapidly diminishing resource, we could utilize those resources in innovating, retooling and making cool stuff, then rebuilding the infrastructure of the place and bodies in which we reside.

Just a thought.

[Beltmann]

ikol and I often disagree on policy, but I definitely don't think he's a heartless bastard. I think he's a conservative who actually listens to and hears the other side, and that's a pretty rare, and appreciated, thing.

[mountain bed]

ikol and I often disagree on policy, but I definitely don't think he's a heartless bastard. I think he's a conservative who actually listens to and hears the other side, and that's a pretty rare, and appreciated, thing.

What he said.

[bobbob1313]

If that Louie guy had a TV show it would be at least as entertaining as Glenn Beck, and for all of the same reasons Glenn Beck is entertaining.

 

Because he's crazy!

[kidsmoke]

Really? I thought Lou made some good, solid points. I can understand some of the merits of both sides of this argument... as usual the best path will take both into account, I think. Important that we proceed with compassion and a long view.

 

M. Chris, as we discussed, so very important that our country's infrastructure gets attention soon!

[LouieB]

If that Louie guy had a TV show it would be at least as entertaining as Glenn Beck, and for all of the same reasons Glenn Beck is entertaining.

 

Because he's crazy!

Not at all...I am nothing like Glenn Beck, but I do get to speak my mind too.

 

 

Really? I thought Lou made some good, solid points. I can understand some of the merits of both sides of this argument... as usual the best path will take both into account, I think. Important that we proceed with compassion and a long view.

 

M. Chris, as we discussed, so very important that our country's infrastructure gets attention soon!

Thanks.....

 

I totally understand the argument that the social safety nets are in need of repair because the burden of of the baby boom is going to take a toll on them; that I get more maybe than ikol thinks. Once again, I understand pretty intimately how government works...

 

But somehow other industrialize countries (and some not) have figured out how to get medical care to its citizens, old young and infirmed, without killing them off. The arguments swirling around the health care debate are sickening (literally and figuratively.) The US of A has the largest fucking economy in the world, still, and heaven forbid we invest some of that in the health of our citizens rather than allow the insurance companies to run away with all the money, which is what ultimately is going to happen (it is happening already for those who do have insurance) when Congress gets done with this thing and we don't have a public option. Costs for health insurance are through the roof and we still have no better health care for all people, not just those who can afford it or are lucky enough to have it through their employers. A couple months out of health insurance and one can lose everything during a major illness.

 

So if anyone is insulted that I insulted ikol....I'm sorry. I am not particularly sorry that I took offense that by the fact that he suggested that the boomers all die so "his generation" doesn't have to shoulder the burden of taking care of us. But "my generation" is bearing the burden of the WWII generation and so it goes. Some day those who are babies or unborn will have to take care of the elderly ikol. That's what happens and the real health care debate should be on how we do this sensibly and humanely and by the way fiscally soundly. Will it cost money, yup, just as it costs money to educated children, take care of those unable to take care of themselves, deal with crime, keep up the infrastructure, find a ways to deal with renewable energy sources, feed everyone, etc. etc. It is our social obligation.

 

Unlike Glenn Beck (who I have never seen) I am not crazy or out of control or believe someone else has a problem. WE have problems and WE have to solve them, not blame the victims. If the private sector can solve these things without making obscene profits (reasonable profits and salaries are fine), so be it. Otherwise the government does need to step in and either provide those services (which it does anyway, by the by) or oversee and regulate those services to the benefit of all, not just a few. Does that make me a socialist...yea I guess it does...

 

LouieB

[Guest Speed Racer]

I think anyone who read Ikol's statement and detected any tone of malice toward healthy Boomers went in there looking for a fight.

 

The simple fact Is that, while many countries have indeed established successful state-supported medical care, the U.S. is not any of those countries, and fixing our health care system is going to be more complex than reading a sociology textbook. Each of those countries has good programs, but that doesn't mean their health care problems were solved overnight. Too many people are comparing ourselves to their solutions and not taking any serious look at their pre-health care problems or how they developed their new plans (I'm primarily referring to the peanut gallery when I say 'too many people'). Cultural and societal opinions and fears about healthcare vary profoundly within our nation, not to mention nation to nation, and we are clearly at a point where we should understand that even the best solutions can't be enacted without politicking and public support.

 

Our current health care system is not self-supporting. No matter what, it needs to change. And say what you will about insurance companies, but they are NOT doing well right now. That doesn't make them any more or less broken, blameless or menacing, it's just a fact.

 

I put health care reform and gay marraige in the same 'inevitable outcome' pile. The primary difference with the former is that I'm a lot more willing to trust conservatives to help create an overall better outcome than if the liberals were to just strong-arm this one in (which they don't even seem capable of doing in the first place). I'd rather work to get this right than get this done soon.

[Beltmann]

I have met Lou several times and can safely say he is not anything like Glenn Beck. He's more like Jesus, if Jesus was really into jazz.

[ikol]

Louie, could we maybe just agree to disagree instead of distorting each other's arguments?

[mountain bed]

I have met Lou several times and can safely say he is not anything like Glenn Beck. He's more like Jesus, if Jesus was really into jazz.

Once again, what Eric said.

[bobbob1313]

Really?

 

I understand your postion. This stuff is expensive and upsets the status quo. Kill the boomers, kill the blacks, kill the illegals, kill the gays...etc. etc.

 

This is Glenn Beck-esque stuff, I'm sorry.

 

Louie took ikol's posts completely differently than I think anyone else did or even could have. I don't think he was saying "LouieB should die". He was saying one of the biggest problems facing our government is that there are about to be a ton of people reaching retirement age that simply cannot be supported by the system as it exists now. Louie took that and started saying a bunch of crazy stuff.

[kidsmoke]

If anything destroys Medicare, it will be all the Baby Boomers refusing to die.

 

Oh, spare me, Bobbob...no matter how ikol "meant" this, his choice of wording was offensive.

 

That's all for me.

[bobbob1313]

Spare you what?

[kidsmoke]

Any comparison to Glenn Beck.

[bobbob1313]

Any comparison to Glenn Beck.

 

I mean, ok.

 

But you can't tell me he didn't take what ikol said to it's absolute most illogical extreme. Ikol was doing what he normally does, which is trying to be clever and not take this shit so seriously. I think he generally does a good job of that, and I don't think what he said was especially insulting, and I think LouieB responded in a way that was very similar to the illogical extremes that guys like Beck use. I think it is unfair of him to respond how he did to ikol.

 

If you think that's incorrect, that's cool. But I have a problem with Louie's implication that Ikol wants all blacks, gays, "etc" killed. Sorry.

[kidsmoke]

Well, I took that comment by Lou as being extremely tongue-in-cheek, not meant at all in seriousness. It can be so hard to read someone's tone in printed form, so I suppose ikol's tone could have been misconstrued as well. I'd have preferred a different choice of words. Fair enough?

[bobbob1313]

Well, I took that comment by Lou as being extremely tongue-in-cheek, not meant at all in seriousness. It can be so hard to read someone's tone in printed form, so I suppose ikol's tone could have been misconstrued as well. I'd have preferred a different choice of words. Fair enough?

 

I think we should fight some more about it. I'm bored.

 

[kidsmoke]

Ok then, doublebob, yer fulla crap.

[LouieB]

Is ikol the only one here who can speak in hyperbole? I think not. I get my chance too.

 

As a friend of my said last night, now can anyone support the health care system as it is now? Despite

ikol becoming a doctor, I suspect he hasn't actually sought treatment in the current system. As one who has and as one who has family members and friends who has, I speak not as a doctor. And since ikol is going to be a doctor I would think he would want some reform to keep him from being weighed down by the massive bureaucracy (not government, but the private sector one....).

 

One short story, my daughter Rosie (whom some of you also know) went to an emergency room for treatment recently. Despite having health insurance and giving the hospital her card, she still got two bills saying she owed money (she will owe some money). I called the doctor's billing company (listen up ikol they may not teach this in med school). The billing company is in another state, but the representative I got was in an entirely different state (none of them Illinois). What does THAT cost? We all had to spend time trying to sort out what should have been a fairly simple transation, but each bill, and each phone call and each re-billing costs money. So for the few hundred bucks it cost, more time and energy was piled on top. That doesn't even cover the hospital bill which is still not accounted for and will have to be dealt with. And THIS WITH INSURANCE. Imagine if she didn't have insurance.

 

Looking for a fight? Isn't that all that goes on here? I don't even venture into these threads because there is no meeting of the minds here. Poor ikol is worried that his six or seven figure income will someday be impacted by the costs of people like me who are in fact his bread and butter. From the ground the health care system is terribly broken. Meanwhile costs pile up and people die, not because we are supposed to by nature as ikol suggests, but because the system we have lets us down.

 

I am done with this. If people want to say I am like Glenn Beck, so be it, but Beck is deluded, I am not. I have seen plenty of doctors in my time and trust me, getting old is no circus. Even routine medical care is a drag and serious or cronic illness is not for the faint of heart. Those of you who have been there know what I am talking about. The rest of you thank your lucky stars you don't have to, yet!

 

LouieB