Ted Kennedy to be succeeded by a toolbag

[Guest Speed Racer]

[rant]when the country stops believing that there is a universal right to HDTVs, ipods, cellphones, bling and other creature comforts, I think maybe the concept of universal healthcare might become more palatable universally[/rant]

 

Could you expand on that? I really don't understand what you're getting at. I mean, I understand the sense of entitlement that you're trying to get at, but I don't know how someone feeling entitled to television (and there are those people, I know) affects my belief that since health care is something we all need to live (and to die), and is something we all assume the cost for one way or another, and because quality health care improves public health and safety overall, health care should be provided for everyone in this country.

 

The whole "country" clearly doesn't agree on what our universal rights are, and I certainly, CERTAINLY don't believe that health care is a creature comfort.

[Atticus]

I really would love to see universal healthcare (I have no idea how to bring it about, but I would love to see it)

 

My point was only that I think our "american dream" has gone a bit sideways. Many talk about the healthcare that should be a right for all, but I don't see anyone ever talking about what they're willing to sacrifice personally to achieve it. The money has to come from somewhere.

[Guest Speed Racer]

My point was only that I think our "american dream" has gone a bit sideways. Many talk about the healthcare that should be a right for all, but I don't see anyone ever talking about what they're willing to sacrifice personally to achieve it. The money has to come from somewhere.

 

I have no understanding of the demographics of supporters of universal health care - how much they make, what exactly they support, or what they are or aren't willing to sacrifice. I would gladly see a reasonable increase in my income tax for the sake of universal health care. As far as what I would consider reasonable, I suppose I would have to wait to answer that until I saw how the numbers break down adding my current health care payments to my paycheck and then subtracting the new taxes. I would accept a take-home pay decrease of several percent, though. Hell, I'd even forfeit a few years' worth of tax refunds.

 

I suppose another way to help fund universal health care would be to tax "health-related" products: cigarettes, alcohol, processed foods, cosmetic surgery, even perhaps a tax for dining out. Tacking on a surcharge to health clubs or health equipment would likely go unnoticed, as I would imagine gym memberships are probably used by those who can comfortably afford to do so. Or, a tax on leisure items - consumer electronics, for instance. Obviously none of that would EVER happen, but as you say, the money has to come from somewhere.

[JohnO]

Let's try this again, "factcheck.org is a mouth piece of and funded by the left so it is hardly an unbiased representation of the facts" is a statement of fact and opinion. That doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be used as a source. It was auctioneer69 that stated that the information at factcheck.org supports some of my contentions. Just given the way this little discussion has evolved any source I put up will just generate more of the same kind of foolishness so what's the point? My opinions are formed from a variety of content and sources. The facts and figures are everywhere help yourself to them or not.

 

Medicare is proof positive that the government cannot run a universal health care system. It already takes me 5 months to payoff my tax bill every year. Yes that's every penny I earn for 5 months! It takes me 2 weeks to pay my health insurance bill. Now they say they're going to lower costs if I just pay more taxes. They really think we're idiots. Do you really think the Federal governemnt is going to provide health care for less than it costs me today? Remember these are the guys that buy $600 hammers and $2,500 toilet seats. They are also the guys that did a hip replacement on my bed ridden terminally ill mother in-law with 4 weeks to live. Give me a F%$king break!

[Guest Speed Racer]

so what's the point?

 

Well, you either got the numbers from somewhere or you didn't. I'm just curious where they came from.

 

Remember these are the guys that buy $600 hammers and $2,500 toilet seats.

 

I actually don't remember that. Was that from the same source you got the first numbers from?

 

They are also the guys that did a hip replacement on my bed ridden terminally ill mother in-law with 4 weeks to live. Give me a F%$king break!

 

No consent or anything? Like, the Feds just came in and replaced her hip? That's so James Bond.

 

More seriously: I'm curious to know whether it takes you two weeks to pay all of your health care insurance costs for the year, even the one your employer assumes (I'm assumimg you have health care through your employer), or does it just take one pay check to pay all of your out-of-pocket costs for the year? Some people are decidedly healthier than others; that doesn't mean they will always be that way. I'm pretty confident most of the taxes I pay go to programs I don't use, and likely never will; I'll also assume the same goes for you. Does this bother you? What are your opinions on health care costs in general? Do you think they're too high?

[Atticus]

I would gladly see a reasonable increase in my income tax for the sake of universal health care.

...

I would accept a take-home pay decrease of several percent, though. Hell, I'd even forfeit a few years' worth of tax refunds.

 

I suppose another way to help fund universal health care would be to tax "health-related" products: cigarettes, alcohol, processed foods, cosmetic surgery, even perhaps a tax for dining out. Tacking on a surcharge to health clubs or health equipment would likely go unnoticed, as I would imagine gym memberships are probably used by those who can comfortably afford to do so. Or, a tax on leisure items - consumer electronics, for instance.

 

This

 

I would love, for once, the politicians to say to us "I'll do my best to come up with a fair plan for all, but our economy is currently in the tank, our spending is insane, our foreign debt is terrifying, so I need YOU to put in your share too"

 

I wasn't alive for world war I or II, but the accounts I've heard of both include a sense of civic duty, of sacrifice, for the common good. I feel like I live in a me, me, me country today, and I'd like to see some politicians holding voters accountable, rather than endlessly dangling carrots and badmouthing the opposition.

[bobbob1313]

Far be it for me to criticize or comment on anyone's personal situation that I don't know that much about, but in a vacuum, I'd love to be in the position to be in the tax bracket that pays 40% of my income.

[Doug C]

Let's try this again, "factcheck.org is a mouth piece of and funded by the left so it is hardly an unbiased representation of the facts" IS A STATEMENT OF FACT AND AN OPINION. That doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be used as a source. It was auctioneer69 that stated that the information at factcheck.org supports some of my contentions. Just given the way this little discussion has evolved any source I put up will just generate more of the same kind of foolishness so what's the point? MY OPINIONS ARE FORMED FROM A VARIETY OF SOURCES. The facts and figures are everywhere help yourself to them or not.

Regarding my above emphasis:

Which is it, a statement of fact or of opinion?

 

So according to the above, the following was an opinion? "As far as the uninsured go about a third of them can afford insurance but choose not to, another quarter are below the poverty line and qualify for SS/Medicare, another quarter either can't qualify for or cannot afford insurance and the remainder are illegal aliens."

[Guest Speed Racer]

I'd love to be in the position to be in the tax bracket that pays 40% of my income.

 

I know, right? But I guess the B.I.G. was right...Also, what country does he live in where there's a 40% income tax bracket?

[bobbob1313]

I know, right? But I guess the B.I.G. was right...

 

I guess it's just the principle of it, but from what I understand, the 35%+ tax bracket is for those who make $400,000~ or more. I can't imagine myself complaining about coming home with $200,000, being the young naive kid I am, I guess.

 

 

Also, maybe he's including state income taxes, SS, and all that other crap?

[Guest Speed Racer]

I would love, for once, the politicians to say to us "I'll do my best to come up with a fair plan for all, but our economy is currently in the tank, our spending is insane, our foreign debt is terrifying, so I need YOU to put in your share too"

 

I wasn't alive for world war I or II, but the accounts I've heard of both include a sense of civic duty, of sacrifice, for the common good. I feel like I live in a me, me, me country today, and I'd like to see some politicians holding voters accountable, rather than endlessly dangling carrots and badmouthing the opposition.

 

I agree with you entirely. As far as I'm concerned, there's a good threshold above which most of our country earns, where we have more than enough to get by comfortably, including savings and retirement contributions (and even basic cable, as long as we're discussing needs ). Past that, we have a cushion of leisure spending to do with as we please. Almost all of us can take a tax increase for health care and still live above that threshold.

 

Unless Obama or a congressman can just lay this on the table, I really don't think this (or Obama's presidency) is going to succeed. What kills me is that, of all the things to be straight with the people about, this is one of the easiest, not least of all because we understand all of this.

[Guest Speed Racer]

I guess it's just the principle of it, but from what I understand, the 35%+ tax bracket is for those who make $400,000~ or more. I can't imagine myself complaining about coming home with $200,000, being the young naive kid I am, I guess.

 

 

Also, maybe he's including state income taxes, SS, and all that other crap?

 

Don't forget the multiple homes and yachts. Being a young naive slightly older kid, I really can't understand how someone can't figure out how to live obscenely comfortably with that kind of income*, unless they had 12 children. Hell, I make a fraction of a fraction of that, and I'm very well off, as far as I'm concerned.

 

*ETA for absolute clarification: I'm reffering to a $400,000/year salary, not the income of any specific person.

[bobbob1313]

I'm trying really hard not to criticize his personal situation because I don't know it, it just seems strange to me to complain about it. I get the principle of "working 5 months for free" and all that, but ultimately, if I were in that position, I would just chalk it up to the cost of living that lifestyle, and be happy with that I have. I dunno.

 

I hear that kind of complaint a lot and to me, it rings hollow. To me, it sounds like the person feels they are entitled to every cent they earn, and I just don't see it that way. Chalk it up to just ideological differences on a fundamental level.

[Guest Speed Racer]

I hear that kind of complaint a lot and to me, it rings hollow. To me, it sounds like the person feels they are entitled to every cent they earn, and I just don't see it that way. Chalk it up to just ideological differences on a fundamental level.

 

More than that, I think it's really important to keep things in perspective: no matter what we have to complain about in this country, we live in one of the most desirable nations to live in, in the world. Legal immigration is incredibly high here, partly due to the state of the labor trade and our own immigration laws, but also because a lot of people come here to go to school, hoping to get a job here afterward; a lot of people reallyreallyreally hope they're the one who gets transferred from their division in [other nation] to work for their employer here in the U.S. We might not be #1 on everyone's list, but we have it really flippin' good.

[Atticus]

We also kinda have this irony/contradiction in this country though, in that we have an "american dream" under which one may work hard and accumulate some goodies, but the minute that person passes another's ideological limit of goodies, he/she gets slammed as a greedy SOB who should be giving it all away to others. Meanwhile some sit on their asses and do nothing.

 

I have trouble at times fairly balancing that out in my mind. I'd like to think that if I work really hard I might be entitled (for lack of a better word) to some creature comforts and security, but I also feel a moral obligation to help others. I think some of this healthcare debate comes down to to what extent one thinks others should voluntarily help others vs. how much should just be taken from them by the government.

 

I also think lots of secondary biases go into one's calculation of that.

[ZenLunatic]

More than that, I think it's really important to keep things in perspective: no matter what we have to complain about in this country, we live in one of the most desirable nations to live in, in the world. Legal immigration is incredibly high here, partly due to the state of the labor trade and our own immigration laws, but also because a lot of people come here to go to school, hoping to get a job here afterward; a lot of people reallyreallyreally hope they're the one who gets transferred from their division in [other nation] to work for their employer here in the U.S. We might not be #1 on everyone's list, but we have it really flippin' good.

 

The statement is true and I agree with it but it is quickly changing. All our hope and dreams of America is now being exposed to the world as unsustainable.

[JohnO]

You guys should take a closer look at your paystubs. They take much more than Fed Income taxes from you every week. Add up the Fed Withholding +

Fed MED/EE + Fed OASDI/EE + State + Local Withholding and tell me what % it comes out to. The crazy income numbers you guys are throwing around just proves you haven't got a clue what the government is stealing from you. Which is why we have turned the old proverb on its head.

 

The ant works hard in the withering heat and the rain all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter.

 

The grasshopper thinks the ant is a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away.

 

Come winter, the shivering grasshopper calls a press conference and demands to know why the ant should be allowed to be warm and well fed while he is cold and starving.

 

CBS, NBC , PBS, CNN, and ABC show up to provide pictures of the shiveringgrasshopper next to a video of the ant in his comfortable home with a table filled with food.

 

America is stunned by the sharp contrast.

 

How can this be, that in a country of such wealth, this poor grasshopper is allowed to suffer so?

 

Kermit the Frog appears on Oprah with the grasshopper and everybody cries when they sing, 'It's Not Easy Being Green.'

 

ACORN stages a demonstration in front of the ant's house where the news stations film the group singing, We shall overcome. Then Rev. Jeremiah Wright has the group kneel down to pray to God for the grasshopper's sake.

 

President Obama condemns the ant and blames President Bush, President Reagan, Christopher Columbus, and the Pope for the grasshopper's plight.

 

Nancy Pelosi & Harry Reid exclaim in an interview with Larry King that the ant has gotten rich off the back of the grasshopper, and both call for an immediate tax hike on the ant to make him pay his fair share.

 

Finally, the EEOC drafts the Economic Equity & Anti-AntAct retroactive to the beginning of the summer.

 

The ant is fined for failing to hire a proportionate number of green bugs and, having nothing left to pay his retroactive taxes, his home is confiscated by the Government Green Czar and given to the grasshopper.

 

The story ends as we see the grasshopper and his free-loading friends finishing up the last bits of the ants food while the government house he is in, which, as you recall, just happens to be the ant's old house, crumbles around them because the grasshopper doesn't maintain it.

 

The ant has disappeared in the snow, never to be seen again.

 

The grasshopper is found dead in a drug related incident, and the house, now abandoned, is taken over by a gang of spiders who terrorize the ramshackle, once prosperous and once peaceful, neighborhood.

 

The entire Nation collapses bringing the rest of the free world with it.

[Guest Speed Racer]

All our hope and dreams of America is now being exposed to the world as unsustainable.

 

That's certainly not slowing down the line. I see what you're saying, and I agree about the world's declining opinion of the United States, but the Immigration Service is not short on temporary and long-term applicants.

 

To respond to Poongoogler, I guess my idealogical litmus is that only when your leisure spending cramps your day-to-day expenses, and you choose to complain about that, do you become a greedy SOB - regardless of income. I lump charitable contributions into the leisure spending category, though ideally, I would like to calculate the cost of my own contributions into my living expenses. Unfortunately, I haven't yet made a habit of that.

 

As for the rate of taxation, I've said here that, generally speaking, I accept the government's taxes. If I didn't, I would be a lot more active in government. I feel confident now that my opinions are adequately represented by my representatives, and if I didn't, I would probably do more than vote in the elections. In my opinion, people who complain to others about how they aren't being heard, but either don't vote or only vote - choosing not to write letters or otherwise express themselves - are also greedy SOBs, wanting change but not wanting to work for it.

[ih8music]

You guys should take a closer look at your paystubs. They take much more than Fed Income taxes from you every week. Add up the Fed Withholding +

Fed MED/EE + Fed OASDI/EE + State + Local Withholding and tell me what % it comes out to. The crazy income numbers you guys are throwing around just proves you haven't got a clue what the government is stealing from you. Which is why we have turned the old proverb on its head.

 

The ant works hard in the withering heat and the rain all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter.

 

The grasshopper thinks the ant is a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away.

 

Come winter, the shivering grasshopper calls a press conference and demands to know why the ant should be allowed to be warm and well fed while he is cold and starving.

 

CBS, NBC , PBS, CNN, and ABC show up to provide pictures of the shiveringgrasshopper next to a video of the ant in his comfortable home with a table filled with food.

 

America is stunned by the sharp contrast.

 

How can this be, that in a country of such wealth, this poor grasshopper is allowed to suffer so?

 

Kermit the Frog appears on Oprah with the grasshopper and everybody cries when they sing, 'It's Not Easy Being Green.'

 

ACORN stages a demonstration in front of the ant's house where the news stations film the group singing, We shall overcome. Then Rev. Jeremiah Wright has the group kneel down to pray to God for the grasshopper's sake.

 

President Obama condemns the ant and blames President Bush, President Reagan, Christopher Columbus, and the Pope for the grasshopper's plight.

 

Nancy Pelosi & Harry Reid exclaim in an interview with Larry King that the ant has gotten rich off the back of the grasshopper, and both call for an immediate tax hike on the ant to make him pay his fair share.

 

Finally, the EEOC drafts the Economic Equity & Anti-AntAct retroactive to the beginning of the summer.

 

The ant is fined for failing to hire a proportionate number of green bugs and, having nothing left to pay his retroactive taxes, his home is confiscated by the Government Green Czar and given to the grasshopper.

 

The story ends as we see the grasshopper and his free-loading friends finishing up the last bits of the ants food while the government house he is in, which, as you recall, just happens to be the ant's old house, crumbles around them because the grasshopper doesn't maintain it.

 

The ant has disappeared in the snow, never to be seen again.

 

The grasshopper is found dead in a drug related incident, and the house, now abandoned, is taken over by a gang of spiders who terrorize the ramshackle, once prosperous and once peaceful, neighborhood.

 

The entire Nation collapses bringing the rest of the free world with it.

You really don't want anyone to take you seriously, do you?

[Guest Speed Racer]

You guys should take a closer look at your paystubs...you haven't got a clue what the government is stealing from you.

 

No, I actually do pay close attention to my paystubs, and the government is taking nowhere near to 40% of my paycheck - not even half of that. And, I'm still living quite comfortably despite not making a whole hell of a lot.

[JohnO]

Regarding my above emphasis:

Which is it, a statement of fact or of opinion?

 

So according to the above, the following was an opinion? "As far as the uninsured go about a third of them can afford insurance but choose not to, another quarter are below the poverty line and qualify for SS/Medicare, another quarter either can't qualify for or cannot afford insurance and the remainder are illegal aliens."

Unless I include quotation marks it is my informed opinion.

[Atticus]

All our hope and dreams of America is now being exposed to the world as unsustainable.

 

haven't you read that other thread? America died last Thursday.

[Guest Speed Racer]

Unless I include quotation marks it is my informed opinion.

 

But you still can't tell us what it is that informed you.

[JohnO]

You really don't want anyone to take you seriously, do you?

Sorry, did I insult your binky?

[ih8music]

Sorry, did I insult your binky?

I guess the answer is no.