What's with the riots?

[Ghost of Electricity]

So everyone is entitled to free healthcare, a free college degree, a 35 hour work week, and retirement at 50? Do they not have math in Europe?

I do not live in France.

 

And yes we have math. In fact the math scores of kids coming out of schools here kick the ass right off the math scores of kids in American high schools.

 

What we have, which enables these sort of things, is taxes.

[Guest Speed Racer]

How come you Minnesotans are not rioting?

 

We're just darned pissed, is all. The U of M is a f-f-f-f-fucking liar!

[cryptique]

So everyone is entitled to free healthcare, a free college degree, a 35 hour work week, and retirement at 50?

Why not? (Except that retirement-at-50 thing ... slackers.)

 

There's nothing wrong with constructing your society to offer such things. It works in Denmark (for example). Taxation is higher to pay for it all, naturally, but in the end the people who live in such societies vastly prefer them to our model (and I would too). And they feel no lack of "freedom," despite living in what many Americans would consider a socialist society.

[Synthesizer Patel]

So everyone is entitled to free healthcare, a free college degree, a 35 hour work week, and retirement at 50? Do they not have math in Europe?

 

well actually, no. we have MATHS. see, we put an S on the end of it. so, in answer to your question - no we don't have math.

[Guest Speed Racer]

ikol, do you get nervous when you go to all-expenses-paid resorts?

 

well actually, no. we have MATHS. see, we put an S on the end of it. so, in answer to your question - no we don't have math.

 

This reminds me of when my sister was teaching English in Austria and had a lengthy and heated discussion with an Austrian-born English teacher about how you really do pronounce "clothes" as "close," and not "clothe-ESS."

[calvino]

How come you Minnesotans are not rioting?

 

Too cold and snowy.

[bjorn_skurj]

Why not? (Except that retirement-at-50 thing ... slackers.)

 

There's nothing wrong with constructing your society to offer such things. It works in Denmark (for example). Taxation is higher to pay for it all, naturally, but in the end the people who live in such societies vastly prefer them to our model (and I would too). And they feel no lack of "freedom," despite living in what many Americans would consider a socialist society.

The same is true of Sweden. (I have it on good authority.) It's all about a society's raison d'etre - to take care of its members no matter what happens to them or to provide a basic framework of safety and efficiency and let people more or less fend for themselves. There are good arguments for both approaches.

[Synthesizer Patel]

actually, i went to Leicester University, and we had an American in our halls of residence - and he called it Lie - Sester, when it's actually pronounced Lesster. he eventually swapped rooms with one of my friends, though, cos we were too noisy for him at night whilst he wanted to do his chemistry research. it was either that, or the fact that we caught him pissing out of his window because he was too lazy to go to the bathroom. he'd actually killed all the grass outside his window, so we knew it wasn't just a one off.

 

anyway, surely pissing outside your own window is far worse than any rioting?!

[ikol]

And yes we have math. In fact the math scores of kids coming out of schools here kick the ass right off the math scores of kids in American high schools.

 

Well my math scores kick all of their asses, so I should get to make the budget.

 

What we have, which enables these sort of things, is taxes.

 

But not enough of them apparently.

 

Why not? (Except that retirement-at-50 thing ... slackers.)

 

And the 35 hour work week.

 

There's nothing wrong with constructing your society to offer such things. It works in Denmark (for example). Taxation is higher to pay for it all, naturally, but in the end the people who live in such societies vastly prefer them to our model (and I would too). And they feel no lack of "freedom," despite living in what many Americans would consider a socialist society.

 

Yeah, but Denmark is kinda rotten. There's also less rioting here.

 

well actually, no. we have MATHS. see, we put an S on the end of it. so, in answer to your question - no we don't have math.

 

How do you even say that without sounding like you have a lisp?

 

ikol, do you get nervous when you go to all-expenses-paid resorts?

 

I'm too busy working to do that!

 

anyway, surely pissing outside your own window is far worse than any rioting?!

 

Maybe there were rioters outside his window.

[Sunken mountain]

And yes we have math. In fact the math scores of kids coming out of schools here kick the ass right off the math scores of kids in American high schools.

 

 

Sooo,you´re not Spanish ¿Y "Los Gasolineros"?

[bjorn_skurj]

Really - we Americans have no right to say we are doing a better job on education than anyone at this point.

[Ghost of Electricity]

Sooo,you´re not Spanish ¿Y "Los Gasolineros"?

No, that would make way too much sense. And judging by the state of things there, not really help my case in this forum about the sustainability on it all.

 

 

But not enough of them apparently.

 

Apparently not in England. I think in most continental countries, though, it's still free. I could be wrong about this.

[bjorn_skurj]

Sweden just started charging this year for students from non-EU countries. So far, no riots.

[lamradio]

I think we need to riot more here. We just sit and take it.

 

This is why there isn't that much rioting here:

 

[Ghost of Electricity]

[ikol]

The more I think about it, the more absurd this rioting seems. Their education is being paid for only almost entirely by others (presumably, even if they spend 7 1/2 years getting a major in masturbatory studies) and they're actually protesting the fact that they're not getting a completely free ride. It would be like someone gave you a suitcase full of money on the condition that you pay $100 for the actual case, and you respond by taking the suitcase and throwing rocks at his kids.

[Guest Speed Racer]

The more I think about it, the more absurd this rioting seems. Their education is being paid for only almost entirely by others (presumably, even if they spend 7 1/2 years getting a major in masturbatory studies) and they're actually protesting the fact that they're not getting a completely free ride. It would be like someone gave you a suitcase full of money on the condition that you pay $100 for the actual case, and you respond by taking the suitcase and throwing rocks at his kids.

 

The rioting is absurd, and will always be absurd.

 

The issue itself is less absurd. I mean, this is a value of between $32,000-$100,000, right? It's not that different from the social security dilemma we're facing here, except that it comes at the beginning (more or less) of one's life than at the end. I have a feeling that their taxes are not being decreased for this, even though their taxes formerly subsidized the education. So they'll still pay insanely high taxes but also be saddled with student debt, which kinda sucks. Kind of like I'm paying into social security and I have a better chance of getting a lap dance from John Lennon than I do ever seeing a social security check with my name on it.

[ikol]

The rioting is absurd, and will always be absurd.

 

The issue itself is less absurd. I mean, this is a value of between $32,000-$100,000, right? It's not that different from the social security dilemma we're facing here, except that it comes at the beginning (more or less) of one's life than at the end. I have a feeling that their taxes are not being decreased for this, even though their taxes formerly subsidized the education. So they'll still pay insanely high taxes but also be saddled with student debt, which kinda sucks. Kind of like I'm paying into social security and I have a better chance of getting a lap dance from John Lennon than I do ever seeing a social security check with my name on it.

 

The issue is less absurd, but only a little. First of all, a college education can be a valuable thing, but it's not something that everyone needs or wants. It's certainly not something that someone else owes you. People are willing to take out loans >$100,000 to pay for a house, but it's somehow unreasonable that they borrow money to pay for their future? And we're not even talking about them suddenly having to pay for their entire education but just a small portion. That's what happens when the government promises more than it can fund. Eventually cuts have to be made.

[Guest Speed Racer]

The issue is less absurd, but only a little. First of all, a college education can be a valuable thing, but it's not something that everyone needs or wants. It's certainly not something that someone else owes you.

 

Well, that's certainly not what I said. The issue is that it's currently a benefit they are paying for through taxes, and are now no longer allowed to partake in. Obviously, the 19 year-olds haven't paid many taxes toward it, but if you're growing up in a state that has bestowed certain benefits to its citizens, who have not lived any other way for a very long time, it's an abrupt switch and a whole heck of a lot of money you weren't raised to expect to shell out.

 

ETA: And as Cryp pointed out, it's unfair to completely pair the rioting with the demonstrations since a lot of rioting isn't always tied to the demonstration itself.

 

What we're seeing, then, is likely a combination of mourning for a very valuable state benefit and anger that this wasn't resolved back when the governments *knew* they were running out of cash.

[u2roolz]

I have a better chance of getting a lap dance from John Lennon.

 

Hey, does this mean that Mary Louise Parker sitting in your lap for Christmas is more or less likely?

[bjorn_skurj]

Look, when they announce Social Security is going tits-up, I am going to riot like a Greek Frenchman whose just been told he can't retire until he's 44 and he has to pay retroactive tuition.

[Ghost of Electricity]

The issue is less absurd, but only a little. First of all, a college education can be a valuable thing, but it's not something that everyone needs or wants. It's certainly not something that someone else owes you. People are willing to take out loans >$100,000 to pay for a house, but it's somehow unreasonable that they borrow money to pay for their future? And we're not even talking about them suddenly having to pay for their entire education but just a small portion. That's what happens when the government promises more than it can fund. Eventually cuts have to be made.

Education can be made to be universally available at a cost of zero. It is being done. I see this as a good thing, far better than having education available to a small, rich elite. The fact that a government has to take a difficult decision in the direction of the latter is unfortunate. The fact that you seem to be saying they should be running in that direction as fast as they can is, in my humble opinion, the most absurd thing about this discussion.

[Guest Jules]

Education can be made to be universally available at a cost of zero. It is being done. I see this as a good thing, far better than having education available to a small, rich elite.

But aren't the "rich elite" the smart people.

[Ghost of Electricity]

[Guest Jules]

I can post pictures of smart people too.