Wisconsin is the New Egypt

[LouieB]

Sadly unions are an easy target because everyone interfaces with govenment employees on a daily basis, whether it is at schools, the DMV, the courts, the library or some other government agency. Meanwhile, as you point out, the corporations, who are faceless and sometimes nameless, can get away with paying less than their fair share and really no one cares, because isn't that what capitalism is about. But regular old workers? Nah, we have to shoulder the burden for all of government's problems.

 

LouieB

[Guest Jules]

They do. They just need to negotiate it into the contract they have with their employer.

This is funny.

 

Sadly unions are an easy target because everyone interfaces with govenment employees on a daily basis, whether it is at schools, the DMV, the courts, the library or some other government agency. Meanwhile, as you point out, the corporations, who are faceless and sometimes nameless, can get away with paying less than their fair share and really no one cares, because isn't that what capitalism is about. But regular old workers? Nah, we have to shoulder the burden for all of government's problems.

 

LouieB

Before anyone goes any further on the "corporation" rant, please define what you mean by corporation. Are you talking publicly-held only? Or any corp that makes too much money? Be more specific. There are plenty of "regular old workers" at corporations.

[Guest Speed Racer]

Sadly unions are an easy target because everyone interfaces with govenment employees on a daily basis

 

Unions are an easy target because of pensions - a bloated, out-dated system. I don't agree with what the governor of Wisconsin is doing - erradicating a union is not the way to go - but I do agree that government workers need to make some HUGE concessions to ease the budget deficit.

 

But regular old workers? Nah, we have to shoulder the burden for all of government's problems.

 

So how many times have you lost your job in a recession?

[Guest Jules]

I don't see how he is erradicating the union. I also don't see how not showing up for work accomplishes anything.

[Guest Speed Racer]

Yeah, but that was like 20% of the teachers I had. The coach that "taught" my sophomore biology class was overpaid if he was making minimum wage.

 

Back when I was in high school in the late 90s, all 20 of our school's driver's ed teachers (who were also most of our coaching staff at the school) were making well about $90,000 each because they had been there so long. The only two people in the school who earned more than them were the superintendent and a biology teacher who I think taught when Ernest Hemingway still attended our school. What a bizarre situation. I learned how to drive, yes, but I didn't get a $90,000 driver's education.

[Guest Speed Racer]

I don't see how he is erradicating the union.

 

Well, "erradicating the union" and "virtually-eliminating collective bargaining rights," as the Star Tribune reports, aren't too terribly different in my mind.

[Smokestack Joe]

I don't see how he is erradicating the union. I also don't see how not showing up for work accomplishes anything.

 

I agree, he isn't eradicating the unions but as the writer of this Chicago Tribune wrote "No, he is not seeking to eliminate unions, though you might get that impression from the heated rhetoric of the employees and even from President Barack Obama, who called this an "assault on unions."

 

yes, not showing up for the work (teachers & Senate Democrats) doesn't accomplish anything, as Gov. Walker said, "we can't talk about anything if you don't come to work.."

 

The bill will get passed at some point with Democratic approval so "virtually eliminating CBAs" probably won't happen.....

[Guest Speed Racer]

yes, not showing up for the work (teachers & Senate Democrats) doesn't accomplish anything, as Gov. Walker said, "we can't talk about anything if you don't come to work.."

 

There's a difference between not showing up for work and not working, which I think the governor trying hard to avoid in his own rhetoric. Democrats are not cowering in linen closets in McHenry county, they are on the phone trying to get Republicans to agree to changes and the like.

 

The teachers are simply trying to make a point, and I can't say I agree with how they're doing it.

[Smokestack Joe]

i understand you Laminated Nap and i agree. i dont think the Dems fled due to being scared or not having a plan/idea. i won't resort to name-calling the teachers or Democrats, not my style.

Personally, i would rather see the senate Democrats stay in Madison and work it out but i get the filabuster thing.

 

hope people can be happy again but "in these ecomonic times..." some people can't find a way.

[calvino]

As for the people of WI views on things, I guess it should be noted that Feingold (a pro labor senator) was voted out, which I think was rather unfortunate. But I think the union/gov't workers have a uphill battle on persuading their fellow Wisconsinites.

[LouieB]

Pensions are outdated? Wow, okay..I guess I had better retire and collect the one I have been paying into for the past 20 years before it goes belly up.

 

What are all you youngsters going to live on when you retire? Considering there probably won't be any Social Security either, I guess some of you are going to working until you die; just like they did a hundred years ago. That's progress.

 

And one more time, just for the record. I was laid off from a Union job back in my youth. This was a local I worked for. Also I was RIFed under my current union job and because of my seniority (a union gained benefit) I was able to bump a person of less seniority and keep my job. Also the government agency I work for is half (or less) the size it was when I started. That means there are hundreds of less people working than were in decades past.

 

(Gawd, don't Unions suck??)

 

LouieB

[Guest Speed Racer]

What are all you youngsters going to live on when you retire? Considering there probably won't be any Social Security either, I guess some of you are going to working until you die; just like they did a hundred years ago. That's progress.

 

Anyone my age who is depending on social security being around for retirement is a fool. Like any other expense in life, retirement should be something you budget for, and you shouldn't depend on any outside help. Anything you should happen to get will be an orange-slice garnish to the main course.

 

On account of your age (and how close you presumably are to retirement) you might have a pension to collect, but anyone under 35 who thinks they'll have a pension worth a damn is a fool. I don't know how the Illinois state employee model works, but if it's a model that depends on anyone else other than that individual employee to provide contributions to their own individual fund, anyone who depends on that model being around in another 30 years is a fool.

[KevinG]

I don't see how he is erradicating the union. I also don't see how not showing up for work accomplishes anything.

 

here is the actual bill WI Senate Bill 11. In the bill it says among other things

 

 

This bill limits the right to collectively bargain for all

employees who are not public safety employees (general employees) to the subject ofbase wages.

 

and

 

This bill also allows a general employee to

refrain from paying dues and remain a member of a collective bargaining unit

 

 

So yes that is killing the union.

 

And you don't see how not showing up for work accomplishes anything? If the public employees did show up for work in the past three days and just quietly complained about this, do you think you would be talking about it, let alone hearing about it?

[Sparky speaks]

Stop the senseless bickering and start looking at the real causes for this mess. You have fallen for their trap. Identify the real culprits and do something about them instead of the lame labor unions are the cause of our economic collapse bullshit excuse. If you want to take care of the people you can start cutting here. The war on terror in Iraq and Afghanistan has already cost ONE TRILLION dollars. I could give you a million dollars a day since the time of Christ and you would still not have received a trillion dollars. And remember we gave THIRTEEN TRILLION to banks and investment houses by creating it out of thin air. Don't get your shorts in a bind over a few million for a pension fund...

New Afghan war plans could cost US taxpayers an extra $125 billion

 

As leaders at the NATO summit in Lisbon meet this weekend to discuss strategy in Afghanistan, US war planners have been signaling that troop withdrawals set to begin in 2011 will be mostly symbolic and that the handover to Afghan forces in 2014 is “aspirational.”

 

Such could cost American taxpayers handsomely at a time when deficit cutting has gripped Washington. According to one estimate, softening those deadlines could add at least $125 billion in war spending – not including long-term costs like debt servicing and health care for veterans.

 

“I don’t think anyone is seriously talking about cutting war funding as a way of handling the deficit,” says Todd Harrison, a defense funding expert at the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments. But higher war costs “could hurt the base defense budget [and] the rest of the discretionary budget.”

 

Link:

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-South-Central/2010/1119/New-Afghan-war-plans-could-cost-US-taxpayers-an-extra-125-billion

[Doug C]

I don't understand why it's so outlandish for me to expect an employer to fulfill their obligations to their employees. Private businesses, sadly, no. Robbing Peter worker to keep incredibly overpaying executive Paul is an accepted practice. The public sector is different. This may sound ridiculous in 2011 but public employees work for us, the public. We should fulfill our obligations to them. Many public sector employees choose the relatively lower-paying public career because of the security of a good pension. A couple of the pension proposals in my state would lower pension checks by thousands of dollars a month. When I retire in 10 years, under the pension system that I was hired under, my monthly pension will be X number of dollars. If proposed bills become law, it will be thousands less per month. I have prepared responsibly for my retirement. My wife and I also fund other retirement plans. We did the right thing and calculated what we would need, how much our pension would be and open supplemental savings to reach our goal. Now you are telling me that our goal won't be reached? It will be off by thousands because the governor and legislature (and by proxy, our fellow citizens) think that that money should go to pay off state debt or shore up the treasury? When I retire, I will have been a loyal, hardworking, highly evaluated employee for 35 years. My fellow citizens feel that my reward should be a greatly reduced pension? I find that to be simply mean. But since many people have been made to believe that I am undeserving and have been taking advantage of their tax dollars, it's okay. My wife, Lou, Sparky Lyle and I are scapegoats.

 

If the current pension system is financially untenable then come up with a new one for all unvested employees and new hires. That is fair and I would support it. But the pensions of currently vested employees should be left alone and be seen as a promise made in good faith to fellow citizens. A promise that must be upheld. As cheesy as it sounds, that's the American way.

 

Private businesses don't do this but we should be better. Obviously, I am biased but I feel confident that I would feel the same way if I worked in the private sector. It's my sense of fair play.

 

I am sure that others will disagree. Hell, I could name them.

[bjorn_skurj]

It is interesting to see how attitudes have changed toward unions over the last few decades. Used to be, the right to strike was pretty sacred and anyone who crossed the line was a scab and, it was generally felt, deserved whatever they got in terms of violence applied to them for their scabbery.

But now, pensions in the classic sense of the word are so rare in the private sector, those of us who don't have them and must rely on SS, 401(k)'s and hope to avoid an old age of cat-food consumption are increasingly envious and resentful of those who do, which is only stoked by yearly 5-10 percent property tax hikes (in the Hudson Valley region of New York State, anyway) and the soreness from the yearly fucking private-sector workers have to endure with health insurance. So, it's basically just plain old jealousy, exploited by politicians, which drives the anti-public-employees sentiment. I hear all over the place (and even say to myself sometimes, I must confess), "I haven't gotten a raise since 2006 - why do teachers have to get 3 percent every year?"

[Sparky speaks]

This should calm some of you union bashers down...

 

10 things you should know(about the so called Wisconsin budget crisis)

 

1. The deficit is a made-up crisis.

Like most states, Wisconsin is struggling in the recession, but the state government isn’t actually broke. The state legislature’s fiscal bureau estimated the state would end the year with a $121 million balance. Walker claims there is a $137 million deficit — but it is not because of an increase in worker wages or benefits. According to the Capital Times, it is because “Walker and his allies pushed through $140 million in new spending for corporate and special-interest groups in January.” Nice. A man-made “crisis” as an excuse to push neoliberal cutbacks: Shock Doctrine, anyone?

 

2. Even if there was a deficit, blame Wall Street — not the workers.

The economy isn’t crumbling because state workers in Madison have decent pensions. It’s because Wall Street bankers stole our money, Bush and now Obama have us in two trillion-dollar wars, and states like Wisconsin keep spending more on prisons than schools. What do the rich pay? According to the Wisconsin Department of Revenue, corporate tax income has fallen by half since 1981 and over two-thirds of Wisconsin corporations pay zero taxes.

 

3. The Green Bay Packers are with the people.

They won the Super Bowl. They’re owned by the people of Green Bay, not some schmuck billionaire. And now the Pack is standing in solidarity with their union brothers and sisters. If only Brady Poppinga (pictured below) would tackle Scott Walker like that. If the green and gold are down, you already know what side to roll with. (I heard Walker is a Vikings fan, anyway.)

 

4. This is not “just another Madison protest.”

Madison is famous for its progressive tradition, but this is more than just another march down State Street. This struggle is engaging people across the state — not just Madison and Milwaukee, but LaCrosse, Eau Claire, and outside Gov. Walker’s home in Wauwatosa. This struggle is multi-racial, multi-generational, and multi-issue. Working- and middle-class white folks (the majority population) might finally realize that long-term unity is stronger than short-term tax relief. Looking for the progressive antidote to the Tea Party? They’re brewing something in the Badger State.

 

5. Public worker unions were founded in Wisconsin.

The first union for public employees was actually started in Madison in 1932, to ensure living wages for the workers and end political patronage for government jobs. The biggest public union, AFSCME, was born right where the protests are happening today in Madison. Wisconsin has always had a dual legacy — home to the last Socialist mayor in the country (Frank Zeidler of Milwaukee) and the ultimate anti-Communist himself, Joe McCarthy; more recently, both progressive Sen. Russ Feingold and immigrant-basher Rep. Jim Sensenbrenner — but the Dairyland’s populist ethos can be traced back to the Progressive Era and its public unions.

 

6. Hurting public workers will not help you get a better job.

Many conservatives, and even some liberals, argue that we need to “bring public workers’ benefits down to the level of private workers.” First off, it’s not true that public workers are better off — they usually get lower wages in exchange for better benefits. More important, though, is the idea that we should raise all boats, rather than continue this race to the bottom. Russ Feingold said yesterday that “Republicans are trying to pit private workers against their public counterparts.” No more divide and conquer. Yes, people with a private-sector job (or, people who like 50% of black men in Milwaukee don’t have a job at all) have a right to be angry: but that anger should be reserved for the companies who are downsizing and outsourcing those jobs, not for middle school teachers and the lunch lady.

 

7. This is about more than unions.

This is about public education, affirmative action, immigrant rights, stopping foreclosures, and basic human rights. This is about how much the Radical Right thinks they can get away with. This is about drawing a line in the sand — if first they come for the unions, who will they come for next?

 

8. The country is watching Wisconsin.

What happens this week in Madison has national ramifications. Right now, everyone’s eyes are on Wisconsin. The governor of Ohio and Tennessee are threatening to adopt similar legislation — and Obama has his own conservative budget proposal at the federal level. If they can force it through relatively liberal Wisconsin, your state could be next.

 

9. Wisconsin was watching Egypt.

News travels fast, and uprisings inspire each other across continents. The protesters out on the Madison streets watched the millions of Egyptians who successfully, nonviolently took down their dictator. Many of them are now carrying signs like the one below calling Scott Walker “the Mubarak of the Midwest.” And while the American media loves the union workers that toppled a dictator in Egypt, CNN has little sympathy for the workers that will be silenced right here in the heartland.

 

10. Who’s Capitol? OUR Capitol!

This is our moment. Our state. Our growing movement to change the course of the country. The legislature could vote as soon as today on Walker’s bill — unless the real Badgers stand up to stop him.

 

The protests are escalating every day, inside and outside the Capitol. To all my Madison folks, stay strong and know that we’re with you. To the rest of the country, spread the word, donate to the legal defense funds, and make sure your own states don’t go down this same road.

 

Link:

http://joshhealey.org/

[Guest Speed Racer]

This should calm some of you union bashers down...

 

Who, exactly, is bashing unions in this thread?

 

re: Doug -

 

I don't support the idea of a pension system, but without it public employees are, for the most part, grossly underpaid. A transition from a pension system to a non-pension system would be really, really messy - at least in the ways I can imagine it playing out. I don't want that to be the case, but the pension is a money pit for state budgets. Pay people more, have them save for their own retirement; I can't imagine how that would not generate savings in the long run.

 

The system isn't breaking now, it's been broken for quite a while. That each states' day of reckoning for their budget is now approaching is the reason why this is coming to a head when it is. No, our governments - state or federal - have not had awesome fiscal priorities. I think the bailout of the large corporations was an act of fear and an act of appeasement.

 

I don't think that reducing pensions is any sort of a "reward" for 35 years of public service; I think it's a terrible bait-and-switch. But the system is not sustainable and we are short-changing ourselves in the long run.

[LouieB]

And you don't see how not showing up for work accomplishes anything? If the public employees did show up for work in the past three days and just quietly complained about this, do you think you would be talking about it, let alone hearing about it?

 

Seems like a no brainer doesn't it? But then again most folks here would rather sit around their computers and smart phones and bitch about stuff, left and right. One thing the Egyptians have on us is they actually understand the power of actually showing up. Most Americans can't even be bothered to show up and vote.

 

Edit - Thanks Sparky..bjorn.whomever you all are.

 

I guess one thing some pundits are right about; the younger generation is certainly going to be the first generation ever to have a lower standard of living than their parents. If you don't want pensions or good jobs which pay a living wage, just exactly what is going to happen to you? Here we have folks saying they are not against unions but have probably never been a member of a union and don't support better working conditions for themselves or others. Which side are you on??

 

LouieB

[Guest Speed Racer]

Most Americans can't even be bothered to show up and vote.

 

It's a right, not a requirement. I vote, and I hate when people who haven't voted complain about the situation, but it's no one is doing anything inherently wrong by not exercising their right to vote.

[LouieB]

Just a bit touchy...I was making a general comment about the situation, not talking specifically about you at all.

 

LouieB

[ih8music]

This is political opportunism at it's worst. If the governor wants concessions from the unions to help with the state's budget shortfalls -- which, as was mentioned earlier, only exist because of the governor's 1st month of spending -- but nevertheless, if he thinks the unions need to make concessions, there's a place for that... the bargaining table.

 

To unilaterally abolish the unions' right to collective bargaining is the most extreme of moves the governor could have made. There should be no surprise that the reaction is also extreme.

 

I applaud the WI Democratic lawmakers for doing what's essentially a filibuster at the state level. They should hold out for as long as it takes.

[gogo]

Yes, exactly. This is the exact opposite of asking the unions, in good faith, to make concessions. The governor obviously intended to frame this in the most extreme way possible.

 

In case we're taking a poll on this one, I'm with the unions.

[Guest Jules]

I know the governor has one thing right; Obama should keep his mouth shut on this. Oh, wait, there's an election coming up next year. Must kiss ass of unions.

[gogo]

As opposed to the big wet smooch the business community is getting with the "repeal of unnecessary regulations" thing?

 

Believe me, the way unions are feeling about Obama right now, I don't think they'd describe themselves as "kissed". It'd be a much raunchier verb than that.