MattZ

ohhhhhhhh yeah

Because it's so great, or because it reminds you of Mel Brooks' History of the World? NP: Condo F*cks, F*ckbook

Creed is the uniting force on VC. I love it.

NWA never made me uncomfortable, but they sure made a lot of other people uncomfortable.

Yeah, I get that. And frankly, I respect it too. We are just arguing over some dumb hypothetical analogy. Don't get me wrong, just because I have a hard time wrapping my head around the issue of voting on the word of God, doesn't mean that I don't very much root for it. In the end, I want all people to be treated fairly/equally. I dont care if someone is religious or not religious. In other words, I don't waste a lot of energy focused on what I perceive to be the oddity of a Catholic who "herself" doesn't believe that homosexuality is a sin, even if her religion says it is. I focus on

Nothing to change my opinion about. I get it. I know that democractic bodies are the only way to change and I applaud it. It's just hard for me to wrap my head around interpreting the story of Adam and Eve as anything other than an offense to women. No matter what a democracy says about it (or wants it to mean). That's what I meant about blurring issues -- now we are moving onto one of the hard things for me to accept about religion in general.

Well, now we (or, more correctly, I) may be blurring issues, but the entire concept of the word of God being up to a vote is one that is hard for me to wrap my head around. I get it. But only sort of.

By definition, as a democracy, this country is an institution set up for change from within. The fact that religion HAS changed, while commendable, is irrelevant to me for purposes of this discussion. For all these reasons, the glacier that GON refers to is big enough to make the analogy silly to me. I understand that others see the glacier as a rationalization. Maybe there's no difference. EDIT: when I say "irrelevant" above, I only mean in the context of the issue that SpeedRacer raised. Of course, it's relevant in all other respects.

yes, fair point.

I remain confused about your apparent need to be so patronizing in this thread. You dont have to remind anyone in here about how poorly homosexuals and minorities have been treated by this country. If you take a step back for a moment, everyone in this discussion agrees on this point. As I've said, this country has a Bill of Rights. It's right there in the founding document. If you want to tell me that this country was founded on the principle that black men were 3/5 of a person, and that women couldn't vote, and that sodomy was illegal, and that this is no different than Eve being creat

I agree with you that we are all hypocrites to some degree, but I (respectfully, of course) reject that being a citizen of a country where discrimination exists is even remotely analogous to being a member of a religion or country club that disciminates.

I get the point, but it's quite a stretch, and frankly to the point of silly (IMO). The existence of discrimination is different than the institutionalization of it. You can't run away from the existence of something. This country may discriminate against homosexuals and/or women and/or minorities, but we DO have a Bill of Rights. That IS one of the founding principles of this country. EDIT: "Homosexuality is a sin" is arguably a founding principle of certain religions, and of certain country clubs.

Chapter 2. Ticketmaster released extra tix two nights ago and I scored a single floor ticket for face. And made my way to the Garden last night. Lights went down at 8:02, the garden erupted, and I couldn't believe i was back at MSG for a Phish show. My last one was 12/31/97. (Was that their last show at MSG? I think so) Of course, they open with AC/DC Bag (lets get this show on the road), the place goes nuts, and the rest of the night was one boogie fest. Felt like a real old school show to me -- only a couple of new tunes, and very few from the last couple of records. Nothing beats a

WSJ NEWS ALERT: Bank of America to Repay $45 Billion in TARP‏

I don't mean to suggest it was the only reason. Of course land was an important factor. All these issues and examples are complicated and have myriad factors. I think the fact that Indians were viewed as savages made it easier to collect their scalps. Do you disagree with that?

bobbob (and SpeedRacer), I agree with you that we may be hardwired to hate people that are different from us. But it's not entirely clear to me that hatred of Indians by the country's first settlers wasn't based on some perception that they were savages that weren't Christians. It's also not entirely clear to me that African Americans brought over as slaves weren't viewed the same way. "Backwards" or "not civilized" has often meant not Christian. Or not Muslim. Or not [insert religion]. You appear to be throwing up your hands by saying "without religion, there'd be some other conduit."

No need to apologize. I agree that we have no way of knowing, and I acknowledge there are some real holes in my argument. Your example of racism is good, as is my example of homophobia (perhaps by definition) preceding the existence of the Bible.

Trey's smile at 1:10 or so gives me so much more joy than Chris Kuroda's lights. He looks great. I understand why folks don't like this, but I do.

Again, going back to my original response to your original response, I think you are brushing aside way too quickly the impact that centuries of "homosexuality is a sin" has on people that may not even be religious today. The entire debate has been tainted and the fear that exists today has its roots in religion, even if the people who are fear based today aren't religious. I don't want to get into a discussion with you about experiencing homophobia. I am comfortable with the basis for my beliefs, and I respect the basis for yours. Really.

Fair point. I still believe that "homosexuality is a sin" is the main culprit. And I think the better counterargument to my point (maybe), is that if I am an atheist (I am), then I think that the Bible was written by man, not God. And if man wrote it, clearly, man didn't like homosexuals. Before there was a Bible.

I'm squarely with GON on the homophobia/religion issue. If religion had never back on day 1 suggested (or been interpreted to hold) that homosexuality was a sin, I don't see what the basis would be for people to fear it. People may fear it now irrespective of their religious beliefs, but I firmly believe that fear exists only because of the centuries of hate that have preceded us, and those centuries commenced with the Bible. I don't believe that people just naturally fear homosexuals. There's just no basis for it. I also don't believe that people naturally fear people with blond hair.

Good luck, Moss. Keep us posted. I am smack dab in the middle of DeLillo's Underworld right now.

thanks again everyone. Really appreciate it. Had a nice steak dinner in Brooklyn with Mrs. Matt (the Z) and a bottle of wine. Got "Z" cufflinks and a mini video recorder. Not too shabby. 34 sucks, though.

aww, shucks. Thanks folks.

I am listening to Ticket to Ride right now, and you'd better believe that this would slay.