Winston Legthigh

Sounds like somethign an Iraqi citizen might think to himself.

That's a misunderstanding. He is only infallible when he elects to make a certain teaching, and historically, the "Infallability" thing has only been invoked a handful of times, the most recent of which was to define the Assumption of Mary, meaning she was invited to take the escalator while she was still alive.

That I don't know. Membership (to a social group, country, political action group, religion) are all forms of identity, and I don't know how much weight those forms of identity carries with each person.

Well then, at what point on the sliding scale does it not become weak? How far would the U.S. have to go before you'd be ready to pack up your bags? Would you have fled Nazi Germany?

Sodomy? Hell, fornication is still in the books in Minnesota! (damn you Bachman!)

And that's glacier's name is "rationalization" I realize that there's a sliding scale, and slippery slope and all that. But we tend to rationalize the items on the small end of the scale, and (hopefully) rebel against the ones on the Nazi end of the scale. That's what appeasement, er, um, I mean compromise is all about.

You could also respond by saying "guess I'm moving to the Netherlands."? Some people stick around in compromising situations because they want to be an agent of change. Some stick around because the compromising situation doesn't weigh too heavily on their conscience. I don't understand why some people will lob the "you hypocrite!" grenade, because we're all hypocrites to some degree. We all make compromises. We all whore our values to some degree.

Ah, and yet here you are - a citizen of a country that does the very same. Gotta love compromise!

Oh. My. Science.

Neither Hitler, nor Stalin, though their private beliefs suggest that they were probably privately Christian, did not use religion as the backdrop and foundation for the genocidal programs that they all pursued. Pol Pot specifically targeted religious groups, though he did not launch his extermination program on a foundation of "God's commanding me to do this."

Organized religion, on its own, is not the bully. Organized religion doesn't exist without humanity. Do you think the corruption that is a part of organized religion would cease to exist if we got rid of it? Don't you think the plane hijackers would find a new stalking horse to pursue their agenda, or would it all play out like Lennon's lyrics suggest?

I don't think anyone of the parishioners really say the words either - but our pastor does.

I think you're referring to the triple sign of the cross (done with the tip of the thumb over the forehead, lips, then chest) done before the Gospel, usually accompanied by "May the Word of God be on my mind, my lips and in my heart"

Asking a yes/no question IS leading the witness!

True, but they're not using their faith as a crutch to stop looking.

That's a cop out. There are many researchers at the forefront of physics theory that are devout believers. They're going directly after the "big questions" Curiosity is its own thing, and can't be denied. Ask Eve.

Don't worry - I'm not taking it personally. I was geniunely interested in reading your explanation, because I wasn't understanding where you were coming from. I'm not advocating a "meh - why bother, we can handle it" argument. I think everyone should lessen their carbon footprint. I think everyone should ride their bike to work (if you live 10 miles or less from work). I think the one thing that is actually GOOD about being close to peak production of oil is that we'll be forced to work it out sooner than later. And by having unprecedented levels of CO2 in the atmosphere, it looks as tho

Right - so get on with the explaining of why that statement is ignorant.

Sad to say, but I think a massive human death toll is going to be a necessary evil. There's gonna be a culling. Not sure it will happen in our lifetime, but the root of the problem isn't the consumption of fossil fuels, it's the birth rate of fossil fuel consumers. Overpopulation will be, if it's not already, the world's biggest problem of the next few hundred years. The only way we will be able to accomodate more and more people on this planet is by harvesting solar energy, and then also mastering hydroponic technology to be able to feed everyone. We're overworking the prime soil, so we have

OK, so I'm ignorant and baseless for thinking that humanity is going to survive the next energy crisis, and that drives you nuts?

It's not an argument. It's a fact. Adapt or die is the way things work on this planet.

* Multiple trips to IKEA, or pay them to deliver, or barter some other kind of delivery system, or hitch a trailer to your bike. If you can't afford a sofa or its delivery to your house, you have bigger problems than not having a sofa. You can live without a sofa. It's been done. I've read about it. * I'll see your "obviously you've never tried to bike..." bluff and raise you a "oh yes I have, so there" My carbon footprint is smallish. I do what I can. My goal is to have my house off the grid and trade my gas-car to an e-car within 5 years. If we're fucked, we're fucked.

ok - so the problem will be heavier than people switching to a bike-based economy. People will starve. Maybe this will be a catastrophe. Maybe it won't. Either way I'm not worried about it. A better way to deal with the problem is to tell people not to have so many fucking kids. 2 is too many!

Big deal. Gas will price itself out of the market and people will buy more bikes and investors in solar technology will become rich. We got by on not using shitloads of fossil fuels 100 years ago. We adapt. It's what we do.