Bush always doing what's right

[cryptique]

I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. However, if you want, I could re-post a handful of things that completely contradict that statement. We all do that...me, you, ikol, everybody...in one way or another and most of the time, based on opinion and not indisputable fact.

I'm sure you could find plenty of those examples -- I'm an imperfect being like anyone. That is my personal philosophy, though, despite occasional lapses in practicing it. I'm a heck of a lot better at it now than I used to be.

[Derek Phillips]

here's a summary from the AP.

To qualify for federal funding under the bill, newer embryos could be used in studies only if they:

_Were created for the purposes of fertility treatment.

_Were donated by in vitro fertilization clinics with written, informed consent of those being being treated.

_Were "in excess of the clinical need of the individuals seeking such treatment" and would never be implanted in a woman.

_Would otherwise be discarded, as determined by those seeking treatment.

_Were not donated by patients induced to do so by financial or other incentives.

__

Source: "The Stem Cell Research Enhancement Act of 2005," H.R. 810.

Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

 

which is why parading those kids around as possible outcomes of the cells in question is disgusting and utter bullshit.

 

as i said yesterday, the 2 choices are use them for research or throw them in the garbage and he chose the garbage.

 

Thanks for that. I'm done here as it seems I have personally offended El Kevin, whom I love deply.

[Dude]

Thanks for that. I'm done here as it seems I have personally offended El Kevin, whom I love deply.

 

?

[EL the Famous]

Im a godless immoral heathen.

 

I don't see anybody saying that other than you and I still don't see your point? If it's just 'Bush Sucks'...I gleaned that from your other thread. It still reads like some sort of dig on the whole adoption thing and if that's the case...just say that.

 

I'm sure you could find plenty of those examples -- I'm an imperfect being like anyone. That is my personal philosophy, though, despite occasional lapses in practicing it. I'm a heck of a lot better at it now than I used to be.

 

I hear you. Nobody is more imperfect than me, except maybe Anne Coulter and Hitler...who, both, I think actually ate full grown babies for breakfast.

[viatroy]

I don't see anybody saying that other than you and I still don't see your point? If it's just 'Bush Sucks'...I gleaned that from your other thread. It still reads like some sort of dig on the whole adoption thing and if that's the case...just say that.

I hear you. Nobody is more imperfect than me, except maybe Anne Coulter and Hitler...who, both, I think actually ate full grown babies for breakfast.

 

 

just a joke about how far the right will seem to go in defining what's moral and immoral. Adoption is the way to go, absolutely. Wish more people would opt for it, even those without reproductive difficulties. We may have enough people here already.

[Dude]

You know, every time a woman has a miscarriage I think we ought to suck up all the DNA of out of the miscarried baby's cells, implant that DNA into a fertilized egg and give that baby a chance to fucking LIVE, dammit.

[gogo]

it just seems a little crazy to me that so many couples are looking to become parents, having such a hard time and we have an "excess of the clinical need of the individuals seeking such treatment", but I obviously don't have the full details. fuck 'em.

I don't have any facts and figures in front of me, I'm just wondering, for couples with infertility problems, how many would choose to adopt a frozen embryo? It seems to me that there are so many options and avenues for couples to explore, including adoption of babies carried by other women, would adoption of an embryo (with the benefit to the couple, over traditional adoption, being that the woman could carry and deliver her own child), be something that a lot of couples would be interested in? Again, I don't know, I'm just wondering.

[Guest baseball bobblehead]

i'm actually surprised that along with selective service for young men of age, that unused eggs carried by women not having children haven't been harvested for this administration.

[EL the Famous]

Thanks for that. I'm done here as it seems I have personally offended El Kevin, whom I love deply.

 

The only thing that truly offends me about you is the Riviera promotional juggernaut that bombs my email weekly.

 

I love you (and your band) too, man and always will. I just wanted to fully understand the whole thing as this does hit very close to home for me. We had a pre-baptism meeting w/ our pastor and we got into a lengthy discussion about IVF and then, the fact we had an embryo on ice. Obviously, he's been to a bazillion conferences where this has come up, but had never actually met somebody that (or at least somebody that was open about) had gone through it. He was completely non-judgemental and more excited that we ended up being so blessed, but the discussion over the frozen embryo did make me think. I hate to say I had kind of forgotten about it and that, at some point, we have to decide what to do with it. Currently, we've chosen for it to go to somebody that is unable to produce one themselves and (hopefully) become parents. I know this isn't as hard as putting a full-fledged child up for adoption, but it's still hard.

 

As is the case most of the time, it's not the stance I disagree with...it's how it comes off in how it's articulated. That's my interpretation though and you have every right to say what you think and how you want to say it...i'm just exercising my right to do the same.

 

I don't have any facts and figures in front of me, I'm just wondering, for couples with infertility problems, how many would choose to adopt a frozen embryo? It seems to me that there are so many options and avenues for couples to explore, including adoption of babies carried by other women, would adoption of an embryo (with the benefit to the couple, over traditional adoption, being that the woman could carry and deliver her own child), be something that a lot of couples would be interested in? Again, I don't know, I'm just wondering.

 

I don't have any facts and figures either. There are plenty of avenues and options, but all of them have the potential to be extremely difficult and insanely emotionally draining. I will say that knowing the cost of adoption of someone else's child and even more so, the years it can take to actually find a match...implantation of someone else's embryo would have been our next choice would we not have been able to make our own. I know you don't like the 'if you haven't been through X you don't understand' argument, but in this case, it does offer some perspective. We would have gone to adopting someone else's child, eventually...but really wanted to explore every option to give birth to ours oursleves first.

[EL the Famous]

You know, every time a woman has a miscarriage I think we ought to suck up all the DNA of out of the miscarried baby's cells, implant that DNA into a fertilized egg and give that baby a chance to fucking LIVE, dammit.

 

That isn't even anywhere close to being funny and a completely asshole thing to post. Regardless, hope you never have to deal with that, Kev.

[Derek Phillips]

The only thing that truly offends me about you is the Riviera promotional juggernaut that bombs my email weekly.

 

Not lately, it hasn't...

[gogo]

I don't have any facts and figures either. There are plenty of avenues and options, but all of them have the potential to be extremely difficult and insanely emotionally draining. I will say that knowing the cost of adoption of someone else's child and even more so, the years it can take to actually find a match...implantation of someone else's embryo would have been our next choice would we not have been able to make our own. I know you don't like the 'if you haven't been through X you don't understand' argument, but in this case, it does offer some perspective. We would have gone to adopting someone else's child, eventually...but really wanted to explore every option to give birth to ours oursleves first.

I do understand your perspective here. And I know lots of infertile couples, I'm well aware of the physical and emotional toll this takes. But I'm still wondering, aren't some couples infertile because the woman can't carry a baby? And with all the medical procedures that now hold out some hope of producing a child that is biologically yours, isn't adoption (of any kind) getting further down the list for most couples? A couple very close to me has been dealing with this for the past ten years and has chosen not to adopt, based on some adoption scenarios that they were close to in their lives, which were problematic to say the least (this is not to say that I'm not a big supporter of adoption; I'd love to see them be able to come to terms with that as an option, because I know they'd be great parents). I think Tracy said it earlier, there are a lot of people out there already, looking for families. If a couple with frozen embryos doesn't think of them in the same way you think of yours, and if there aren't people clamoring to adopt these embryos (again, I don't know), then we come back to the more basic issue, of whether or not it's moral to use those embryos for research purposes. And I'd be in the "yes" camp on that one.

[Finna]

I don't have any facts and figures in front of me, I'm just wondering, for couples with infertility problems, how many would choose to adopt a frozen embryo? It seems to me that there are so many options and avenues for couples to explore, including adoption of babies carried by other women, would adoption of an embryo (with the benefit to the couple, over traditional adoption, being that the woman could carry and deliver her own child), be something that a lot of couples would be interested in? Again, I don't know, I'm just wondering.

 

 

Dare I point out (not in any poke to this reply, or the discussion in general) that infertility is a scientific response to something. If a man and woman cannot procreate, perhaps this is telling them something?? Some would even dare say that it was god telling them something. However, many, many, many have refulsed this sign and turned to science to help them (via in vitro, fertility drugs, etc.) instead of adopting children in need.

 

How many of those are the same ones who feel that the discarded embryonic materials should NOT be used to help someone else experiencing scientific problems like paralysis, Parkinsons, etc.? Who makes the moral judegement that we can procreate NO MATTER WHAT, EVEN IF OUR BODIES REJECT THE PROCESS, but that we can't use some extra bodily materials to help save someone who was hit by a semi-truck and can't walk?

 

 

 

This debate has so many different layers- just throwing another one out there.

[Dude]

That isn't even anywhere close to being funny and a completely asshole thing to post. Regardless, hope you never have to deal with that, Kev.

No more assholish than taking some cells that could save and improve millions of lives and using 'em to put more babies on an already overpopulated planet. Kev.

[EL the Famous]

No more assholish than taking some cells that could save and improve millions of lives and using 'em to put more babies on an already overpopulated planet. Kev.

 

You really think that? With all due respect, i've seen your myspace pics with your niece/nephew (forgive me, I forget which it is) and, obviously, how proud it makes you to be an Uncle. Same goes for pics/comments posted of the beautiful baby by the justifiably proud, beaming Grandmother that is our own Miss Viatroy...the wonderful pics/posts from Aunt Go-Go...etc. Did the planet become overpopulated before or after they were born? They may not have been born via ART, but my kids are in no way any less deserving to be here than they are.

 

If me and my wife wanting to be parents and using available science to do so WHILE both being for embryonic stem cell research for cells that cannot be adopted, puts me on the same level w/ somebody who thinks it's okay to use a tasteless joke about miscarriage to make a point on their political stance...that I should tell my kids that as much as I love them, that really there are too many people here and they don't deserve to be here...then this really is a fucked up world and I do fear for everybody on it (or at least one fucked message board and a place I obviously need to reconsider frequenting).

 

Relative to Finna's comment, by your rationale should somebody who was faced w/ dying from failure of an organ just take it as sign from God that they weren't mean to live and just donate all their other organs to others? It seems to be selective science based on your personal view...science to do something is okay as long as it's what I think is right. Is someone who's already lived X amount of years more important then somebody who potentialy has their whole life ahead of them? Obviously, that answer is going to depend solely on whether you are, at that point and time, looking have a child or save an ailing family member...personally, I want to be able to do both. Which, comes back to the fact that the third bill for another viable option for adult cell research being overturned makes no sense to me and makes me think that this is just another political issue to garner votes by BOTH sides and has little to do w/ actually saving lives pro-research or not. I'm still the only person to bring that up here.

 

If a couple with frozen embryos doesn't think of them in the same way you think of yours, and if there aren't people clamoring to adopt these embryos (again, I don't know), then we come back to the more basic issue, of whether or not it's moral to use those embryos for research purposes. And I'd be in the "yes" camp on that one.

 

Me too. Said that all along. Also, had Yvette not have been able to carry a child, we would have chosen to adopt one already born. Said that all along too. I can only speak for myself.

[viatroy]

I thought I was done.

 

I doubt anyone thinks you or anyone else should not be able to use the available technology to take an end run around fertility problems so you can have children. Of course you and I love our offspring, goofball, and I would never say yours are somehow "less worthy" or have less "right" to be here. Tha's jus crazY.

 

The issue is though, there are many fertilized embryos that will never be used for the purposes of creating a life. Should we toss em? Or should we use them to find ways to address health issues in the here and now? Sounds to me like tossing em is not the moral high ground.

 

And given the option, I would gladly have given the material from a miscarried fetus to the cause of research. It's the same deal as organ donation, in my mind.

[Elixir Sue]

They may not have been born via ART, but my kids are in no way any less deserving to be here than they are.

 

...that I should tell my kids that as much as I love them, that really there are too many people here and they don't deserve to be here...then this really is a fucked up world and I do fear for everybody on it (or at least one fucked message board and a place I obviously need to reconsider frequenting).

Why do you internalize everything? I haven't seen anybody on here saying that YOUR kids "don't deserve to be here."

[EL the Famous]

Why do you internalize everything? I haven't seen anybody on here saying that YOUR kids "don't deserve to be here."

 

No more assholish than taking some cells that could save and improve millions of lives and using 'em to put more babies on an already overpopulated planet. Kev.

 

Isn't that exactly what he said? We took some cells that could save and improve millions of lives and used 'em to put two more babies on an already overpopulated planet. Plus, as a couple who dealt w/ miscarriage, and the way that comment was posted...yes, I internailzed it and the one above. Why wouldn't I?!

 

If that's NOT what he meant...let him post up as such and i'll retract my statement.

[EL the Famous]

You know, every time a woman has a miscarriage I think we ought to suck up all the DNA of out of the miscarried baby's cells, implant that DNA into a fertilized egg and give that baby a chance to fucking LIVE, dammit.

 

BTW, that was a post offering another legitimate source for medical research versus something else. Sure.

[Elixir Sue]

BTW, that was a post offering another legitimate source for medical research versus something else. Sure.

sat

[EL the Famous]

sat

[Dude]

Isn't that exactly what he said? We took some cells that could save and improve millions of lives and used 'em to put two more babies on an already overpopulated planet.

My comment is about policy, Kev, which is what this discussion is about. Embryos that aren't being used for ANY specific purpose at this point - do we make more babies or save lives? And your personal struggles having a kid are nice and all - but they do not compare to the struggles of cancer patients, spinal chord injury patients, alzheimers patients, and so on.

 

Couples who can't conceive through any other method can adopt. What "alternate" option to cancer patients have who have tried every available therapy? If you could explain to me why it's so important for couples to give birth to their kids versus adopting and why that particular need outweighs the needs of millions of people suffering from terminal illnesses and lifelong paralyzing conditions, I'd love to hear it.

[Elixir Sue]

You think I need somebody to define for me what sat

[EL the Famous]

My comment is about policy, Kev, which is what this discussion is about. Embryos that aren't being used for ANY specific purpose at this point - do we make more babies or save lives? And your personal struggles having a kid are nice and all - but they do not compare to the struggles of cancer patients, spinal chord injury patients, alzheimers patients, and so on.

 

Couples who can't conceive through any other method can adopt. What "alternate" option to cancer patients have who have tried every available therapy? If you could explain to me why it's so important for couples to give birth to their kids versus adopting and why that particular need outweighs the needs of millions of people suffering from terminal illnesses and lifelong paralyzing conditions, I'd love to hear it.

 

Are you fucking kidding me? When did I EVER say that any of our fertility issues compared to the struggles of cancer patients, spinal chord injury patients, alzheimers patients, and so on. Truth be told I don't have to explain to you why it's so important for couples to give birth to their kids versus adopting and why that particular need outweighs the needs of millions of people suffering from terminal illnesses and lifelong paralyzing conditions, because, my guess is, both can co-exist.

 

If you have figures to tell me that this 'surplus' of cells couldn't be adopted AND used for research and if you want to comment policy-wise on the the defeat of the bill for ADULT cell research that the same evil empire that vetoed the first is actually embracing (still, nobody wants to comment), another viable option to to cancer patients have who have tried every available therapy, i'd love to hear that as well. I'm not saying that these cells, should they not be candidates for adoption, be used for research.

 

But back to you original question, even though I don't feel that I HAVE to answer it, but will...first off, if we would have been faced w/ adoption we wouldn't have financially been able to have a family for many years to come, between my insurance for the procedures leading up to and the actual cost of IVF we paid for out-of-pocket (w/ financing)...while a gamble of sorts, it was what we could afford and it was the quickest path to doing so.

 

Bigger and less explainable than that, my wife wanted to be a mother in every sense of the word...not just raising a child from birth, but conceving it as well. Are you for the reproductive rights of women in relation to abortion? That men shouldn't be allowed to tell a woman what she should do with her body? That embryo implanted in her came from HER eggs and MY sperm...and, more relevant to this discussion, the one on ice did as well and it's nobody's decision but OURS what the right or wrong thing to do with it is. So, for you to tell me in any way shape or form that we're placing ourselves over anybody else by preferring that somebody else be given the same opportunity we were to have a child is utter bullshit and contrary to what E. Sue said, you said exactly what I thought.

 

No, it was a response to you saying that post was meant to offer "another legitimate source for medical research versus something else," which it clearly wasn't.

 

P.S. There's no 'K' in tact.

 

sat

[Elixir Sue]

sat