Bible thumping teenagers

[Good Old Neon]

I'm still going to take exception to it, because I don't believe that the vast majority of people who object to abortion do so on religious grounds. Certainly there's a large, vocal group that does, perhaps even most, but certainly not (in my mind, anyway) overwhelmingly so.

 

Isn't that essentially what I just said?

[caliber66]

Isn't that essentially what I just said?

No, you completely marginalized the portion that does not object on religious grounds.

[Good Old Neon]

I'm still going to take exception to it, because I don't believe that the vast majority of people who object to abortion do so on religious grounds. Certainly there's a large, vocal group that does, perhaps even most, but certainly not (in my mind, anyway) overwhelmingly so.

 

WRT legislation (which was the part of your statement with which I had the greatest issue), I missed the section of the ban on partial-birth abortions that discusses the fetus's immortal Christian soul.

 

 

"ProLife.com A Christian group that argues against abortion and premarital sex. With information on events and news." - google

[JUDE]

What do you do?

 

Shoot the hostage!

[M. (hristine]

The difference between war and abortion, is the person being killed in once scenario has absolutely no say in the matter. While it is our governement's responsibility not to put our soldiers in unwinnable and/or unjustified conflict...those soliders enlisted w/ the understanding they will be putting their life at stake. If you take issue w/ someone making a decision if someone else lives or dies...how is war any different than abortion? Be you Pro-Life or Pro-Choice, you are contradicting yourself.

The crux of my philosophy is that they are no different. I have not contradicted myself at all. Both of those activities are human decisions that one person has more of a right to exist than another. Conscious decisions. Again, you might be opposed to this war, but what about WWII? Human beings are making these decisions ALL OF THE TIME.

 

War shifts the world in ways that are unseen. It is deeply entrenched. It leaves countless established family units without their men. The repercussions extend for generations. Regardless of the 'righteousness' of the war.

 

I happen to think that in the meta sense, war and abortion are inextricably intertwined.

 

Abortion is violence. I started out saying that. Like war, it is a barbaric solution to a human problem. But until there is a better solution, I have to defend a woman's (or couple's) right to make that call, and keep the government out of it.

[Good Old Neon]

No, you completely marginalized the portion that does not object on religious grounds.

 

You

[caliber66]

"ProLife.com A Christian group that argues against abortion and premarital sex. With information on events and news." - google

You are the king of posting a single piece of information that supports your position and assuming that means that all information supports your position. You should be receiving your sash and tiara by UPS Ground in the next week.

 

So because there exists a single Christian group that is against abortion, anti-abortion must be overwhelmingly a religious phenomenon?

[Good Old Neon]

The crux of my philosophy is that they are no different. I have not contradicted myself at all. Both of those activities are human decisions that one person has more of a right to exist than another. Conscious decisions. Again, you might be opposed to this war, but what about WWII? Human beings are making these decisions ALL OF THE TIME.

 

War shifts the world in ways that are unseen. It is deeply entrenched. It leaves countless established family units without their men. The repurcussions extend for generations. Regardless of the 'righteousness' of the war.

 

I happen to think that war and abortion are inextricably intertwined.

 

Abortion is violence. I started out saying that. Like war, it is a pretty barbaric solution to a human problem. But until there is a better solution, I have to defend a woman's (or couple's) right to make that call, and keep the government out of it.

 

[caliber66]

You

[Good Old Neon]

You're the one being willfully na

[caliber66]

Well then, kindly provide your evidence to the contrary.

I don't care enough about this issue to continue to argue with you about it, so I'm done. Believe what you will.

 

Someone need not form an organization with a web presence to have an opinion on a matter. That there are Christian pro-life groups on the web only means that they are organized, not that they are the only ones out there. I'm talking about opinions on a personal, individual level. You're talking about groups.

[EL the Famous]

The crux of my philosophy is that they are no different. I have not contradicted myself at all. Both of those activities are human decisions that one person has more of a right to exist than another. Conscious decisions. Again, you might be opposed to this war, but what about WWII? Human beings are making these decisions ALL OF THE TIME.

 

War shifts the world in ways that are unseen. It is deeply entrenched. It leaves countless established family units without their men. The repurcussions extend for generations. Regardless of the 'righteousness' of the war.

 

I happen to think that war and abortion are inextricably intertwined.

 

Abortion is violence. I started out saying that. Like war, it is a barbaric solution to a human problem. But until there is a better solution, I have to defend a woman's (or couple's) right to make that call, and keep the government out of it.

 

You're right, they are very different and my ommision of the unwillful casualties in my point was unintnetional and shortsighted. I actually think we're of the same overall stance relative to the availability of this choice, especially on government's role.

 

Again though, I have to defend my views that:

 

A. There are at least two 'better solutions' than abortion for unwanted children that already exist...not having sex in the first place or (via adoption) turning an unwanted child into a wanted child. I still believe it is every couple's right to make a decision to abort, as long as all other paths have been exhausted and it really is the most responsible decision.

 

B. Abortion isn't just a question of this being solely an issue of 'woman's body = woman's choice'. I'm not saying you are only boiling it down to that, but i've seen that pop up in this thread many a time. There are at least two bodies involved, depending on your view on the father's role and, more relevant, if said child/potential child/etc. is a body at all.

 

one quick question for ... : is abortion still not murder past the first term? is it only murder once the child is out of the womb? not attacking, just curious.

[Good Old Neon]

I don't care enough about this issue to continue to argue with you about it, so I'm done. Believe what you will.

 

Someone need not form an organization with a web presence to have an opinion on a matter. That there are Christian pro-life groups on the web only means that they are organized, not that they are the only ones out there. I'm talking about opinions on a personal, individual level. You're talking about groups.

 

I recommend picking up "Bearing Right: How the Conservatives Won the Abortion War" - it may change your opinion on the matter.

 

Description:

 

In his gripping, behind-the-scenes account, journalist William Saletan reveals exactly how, thirty years after Roe v. Wade, "pro-choice" conservatives have won the abortion war. Having successfully turned abortion into a privacy issue, conservatives now prevail on issues ranging from abortion's legality and parental notification to Medicaid, rape, and cloning; consequently, reproductive autonomy is now becoming inaccessible to the young and the poor. This eye-opening expos tells how abortion rights activists--people who desired social change, women's equality, and broader access to health care--have had their message co-opted in a culture of privacy and limited government. Bearing Right is also a story about the essentially conservative character of the United States today. Saletan tells how, beginning in Arkansas in 1986 during the administration of Governor Bill Clinton, the National Abortion Rights Action League repackaged the abortion issue to give it broader appeal to conservatives. Pro-choice conservatives adopted this new rhetoric and made the abortion issue their own. Saletan takes us through the key events in the ensuing story--the fight over the nomination of Judge Robert Bork, the election of Governor Doug Wilder in Virginia, the convergence of the Bush and Clinton positions on abortion in 1992, and much more--right up to the present day. This book is a crucial lesson in how politicians and interest groups can change the way we vote, not by telling us facts or lies, but by reshaping the way we think--in part through mass marketing. Today, the abortion rights movement must ask itself what it has won and what it is fighting for. This book is sure to play a role in answering that question. In his gripping, behind-the-scenes account, journalist William Saletan reveals exactly how, thirty years after Roe v. Wade, "pro-choice" conservatives have won the abortion war. Having successfully turned abortion into a privacy issue, conservatives now prevail on issues ranging from abortion's legality and parental notification to Medicaid, rape, and cloning; consequently, reproductive autonomy is now becoming inaccessible to the young and the poor. This eye-opening expos tells how abortion rights activists--people who desired social change, women's equality, and broader access to health care--have had their message co-opted in a culture of privacy and limited government. Bearing Right is also a story about the essentially conservative character of the United States today. Saletan tells how, beginning in Arkansas in 1986 during the administration of Governor Bill Clinton, the National Abortion Rights Action League repackaged the abortion issue to give it broader appeal to conservatives. Pro-choice conservatives adopted this new rhetoric and made the abortion issue their own. Saletan takes us through the key events in the ensuing story--the fight over the nomination of Judge Robert Bork, the election of Governor Doug Wilder in Virginia, the convergence of the Bush and Clinton positions on abortion in 1992, and much more--right up to the present day. This book is a crucial lesson in how politicians and interest groups can change the way we vote, not by telling us facts or lies, but by reshaping the way we think--in part through mass marketing. Today, the abortion rights movement must ask itself what it has won and what it is fighting for. This book is sure to play a role in answering that question.

 

My apologies for the preceding wall of text.

[EL the Famous]

Well then, kindly provide your evidence to the contrary.

 

two people having the same overall stance that abortion is murder...one is a christian and one is an atheist...does one person's religious beliefs make it any less viable for you? is your issue w/ the morality or religious connotations to the viewpoint?

[Chendizzle]

[quote name='JUDE

[M. (hristine]

B. Abortion isn't just a question of this being solely an issue of 'woman's body = woman's choice'. I'm not saying you are only boiling it down to that, but i've seen that pop up in this thread many a time. There are at least two bodies involved, depending on your view on the father's role and, more relevant, if said child/potential child/etc. is a body at all.

No, I didn't say that, nor do I feel that. Ideally such decisions should of course be shared. The reality is that the woman usually has the last word on the subject based on biological mandate.

[caliber66]

I recommend picking up "Bearing Right: How the Conservatives Won the Abortion War" - it may change your opinion on the matter.

 

Description:

 

-snip-

 

My apologies for the preceding wall of text.

We're still talking about different things here. And nothing will change my opinion about how individuals come to their opinions in the abortion debate, because my own opinions were formed independent of my own religious beliefs. That there is a book that says religious conservatives were/are deeply involved in the abortion debate (something that is undeniably true) has no effect on that.

[Good Old Neon]

two people having the same overall stance that abortion is murder...one is a christian and one is an atheist...does one person's religious beliefs make it any less viable for you? is your issue w/ the morality or religious connotations to the viewpoint?

 

No

[EL the Famous]

No, I didn't say that, nor do I feel that. Ideally such decisions should of course be shared. The reality is that the woman usually has the last word on the subject based on biological mandate.

 

I know you didn't say that, thus my disclaimer...but my point was not as much focused on the father, but the view that said 'biological mandate' is not just a question of a woman's body, but a child's as well. also, if there is little to no potential for physical harm/death to the mother...it becomes less of a 'biological mandate' than a (and this will sound rough) a lifestyle choice.

 

i'm hoping your not feeling like i'm attacking you either, you are just intelligently and respectfully engaging in the discussion and i'm responding in kind.

 

No

[Edie]

Thanks to those gents that answered miss chris' question. And ikol you of all people are NOT exempt

[Gobias Industries]

Americans are so fearful of seeing death.

 

"After all, to the well-organized mind, death is but the next great adventure."

-Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore

 

I don't get what's so scary about death. Hell, it's moving on to somewhere else, most likely better than whatever you've gone through now. Personally I'm rather more afraid about what comes after (the unknown, more like it). Will I exist? Will I be reincarnated? Do I just cease to exist, to think, to be?

 

Well, on the topic of this abortion deal, I would honestly rather fund the whole process. If you choose not to get an abortion, so what, big deal, nothing used, nothing wasted. If you want one, it should be available for you to use. I'm not going to infringe on people's beliefs, because that's just damn stupid. If you want an abortion because you don't think an embryo is a person, then good for you, get that abortion. If you don't want an abortion because you believe that the Bible is telling you that all life begins at conception or whatever, that killing it is sinful or whatnot (pardon me, my Bible knowledge is...well...limited, being a Buddhist...), then damn well do that, I'm not going to force my beliefs on you, make you do something you don't want to. If you don't think abortion is right, then don't get an abortion. It's just that simple. You can't deny its existence (I would think that it has been present for more than just the last 40 years), you better spend your time on something more useful than griping about something that is based on individual morality and beliefs, which means that no one should impress their beliefs on others.

[Good Old Neon]

you've made other points besides that, but I can't and won't disagree w/ that particular statement. the whole religion angle just seems to continue to be your way of discounting anybody who does have a pro-life stance. what is the purpose of even bringing it up? i could be wrong though, i believe in an actual sky god...so that must mean none of my thought-process is based in anything tangible.

 

My particular impatience with much of the religious crowd stems from their desire to remove the choice from the individual based entirely on religious dogma

[EL the Famous]

if you find abortion to be murder...shut up, keep your head down and just don't get one. awesome. deep, thoughtful discussion on the matter indeed.

 

and the vegetarion analogy would be more weighty if i was eating human flesh or actually slaughtering the animal itself, but whatever.

 

what's your stance on gun control?

[M. (hristine]

I know you didn't say that, thus my disclaimer...but my point was not as much focused on the father, but the view that said 'biological mandate' is not just a question of a woman's body, but a child's as well. also, if there is little to no potential for physical harm/death to the mother...it becomes less of a 'biological mandate' than a (and this will sound rough) a lifestyle choice.

 

i'm hoping your not feeling like i'm attacking you either, you are just intelligently and respectfully engaging in the discussion and i'm responding in kind.

Oh, heavens no! I know what I'm getting into when I jump into these threads. And it's an opportunity to have illuminating conversations that don't often happen in the fleshy world. I'm just surprised that more of the femmes have not joined in. Perhaps they are more savy than me.

 

Yes I misunderstood the point you were making.

 

My personal experience with women facing the abortion question has not been a question of a 'lifestyle choice' or choice of whether a pregnancy would be convenient. Obviously I can't speak for all, but for the women I have known, it is a decision made from deep pain and a kind of debilitating desperation. Physical or emotional. To me it doesn't matter. Regardless the situations that lead to an unwanted pregnancy. And there are myriad scenarios that precede that moment of decision.

 

The only person I know who used abortion as birth control was my alcoholic sister, now dead. I won't even say how many abortions she had. And in the last years of her life fertility became a non issue, thank God. But if I am completely honest, I have to say that I am thankful that none of those pregnancies resulted in babies being born. I mourn their little spirits, but hope that they found better places to dwell.

[MrRain422]

No one answered my question either.