MLB 2008 Part 3, Take 2

[Sir Stewart]

It is interesting - the discussion changed my view that it was the dissing of John Henry that packed Manny's bags for good. It was definitely the veterans' meeting.

[bobbob1313]

Plenty of teams do well when they hate each other. Plenty of teams do well when they like each other. It all depends on the skill and abilities of the player on the team.

 

/Brokenrecord

 

 

Also, MrRain, you might be interested in knowing that Cameron Maybin has looked awesome in his short time with the Marlins so far. 5-6 with 2 walks. He's a treat to watch in center too.

[MrRain422]

Manny affected the clubhouse chemistry so badly for so long that they won two World Series.

[Central Scrutinizer]

Don't know if this is best posted here or Someone Else's Song, but this is from the Trib:

 

Pearl Jam's Eddie Vedder pens Cubs song

 

Chicago radio stations and sports bars have begun spinning "All the Way," a Cubs-themed ditty written by Pearl Jam's Eddie Vedder at the request of Cubs legend Ernie Banks, Billboard.com reports.

 

The track features lines like "Our heroes wear pinstripes / pinstripes in blue / give us a chance to feel like heroes too." It was recorded last month during Cubs fan Vedder's solo concert at Auditorium Theatre, according to Billboard.com.

 

The song will be available for downloading in the next few days, according to Pearl Jam's Web site, and may also be sold on CD and "souvenir 45 singles."

[MrRain422]

Also, MrRain, you might be interested in knowing that Cameron Maybin has looked awesome in his short time with the Marlins so far. 5-6 with 2 walks. He's a treat to watch in center too.

 

I thought he'd live up to the hype, though maybe not so soon. When he was up with the Tigers last year, he was swinging at absolutely everything.

[Sir Stewart]

Manny affected the clubhouse chemistry so badly for so long that they won two World Series.

 

The meat of the conversation is this season's timeline - he came to spring training in great shape and started the season well, assuming the Sox would pick up his option (or re-sign him or whatever it was). When they didn't do that (which they had no smart business reason to), he acted up to the point he was traded.

[bobbob1313]

I thought he'd live up to the hype, though maybe not so soon. When he was up with the Tigers last year, he was swinging at absolutely everything.

 

Apparently he's changed his swing a bit, shortened it up. Might have sacrificed a little power, but he's still rail thin. When he beefs up a bit, I think it'll come, but he may never be more than a 25 home run guy.

[MrRain422]

Yeah, I understand that that is what lead directly to his departure, but the picture that Schilling and Merloni paint is of a guy who has been a problem for a long time:

 

"I'm totally convinced [Ramirez was going to claim he was injured and] play half the games the rest of the year. And he made it clear he didn't want to play. We've all seen what Manny does when Manny doesn't want to play," Schilling said.

 

"The fact of the matter was, you looked at a guy who, at the end of the day, when you look back on the history, never, ever cared about any of us," said Schilling.

 

"The guy got to dress in a locker away from the team for seven years," said Schilling, talking via telephone with Glenn Ordway and former Sox players Lou Merloni and Brian Daubach. "And then [when] he's on this crusade to get out of here, all of a sudden he's in the locker room every day, voicing his displeasure without even having to play the game that night."

 

"It was never a situation that was brought before the team, ever," said Schilling. "It was always a situation where [manager Terry Francona] was thrown under the bus and fell on the sword for Manny and other players, even though we all knew that those players were acting stupid or being stupid or being disrespectful. And for the first time ever, thankfully, [general manager Theo Epstein and Francona] finally said, 'Okay, listen, let's put it in front of the players because we just don't know what to do.'

 

"And I think the result was what everyone would have voted three years ago."

 

He's not saying that everything was great between Manny and his teammates until this season.

 

Apparently he's changed his swing a bit, shortened it up. Might have sacrificed a little power, but he's still rail thin. When he beefs up a bit, I think it'll come, but he may never be more than a 25 home run guy.

 

Yeah, but 25 HR along with a lot of stolen bases at a high success rate, and a supposedly a great glove, and you've got a pretty good player.

[Sir Stewart]

Yeah, I understand that that is what lead directly to his departure, but the picture that Schilling and Merloni paint is of a guy who has been a problem for a long time:

He's not saying that everything was great between Manny and his teammates until this season.

 

True - but Schilling also had some real kind words about Manny as an overall guy, too. I think he was just much easier to put up with when he wanted to be in a Sox uniform.

[sweetheart-mine]

It is interesting - the discussion changed my view that it was the dissing of John Henry that packed Manny's bags for good. It was definitely the veterans' meeting.

i've thought too it was mostly the veterans' meeting, which seemed unprecedented in how seriously the ownership and management took it, according to comments from the players themselves at the time and nesn questioning of several people involved (and also print media coverage, for what it's worth).

 

in past years manny at times would decide he was unhappy or his wife was unhappy in boston and it seemed to show a bit in his playing (or, especially toward the end of last year, not playing). but when he'd relax the team chemistry with him certainly looked fine from the outside or at the very least more than tolerable. his behavior really seemed to become a problem to the team in a more serious way only this year, and i thought it clearly was affecting the team negatively -- i mean, it was pretty visible when you watch every sox pre-game, game, and post-game, and then read a lot.

 

of course clubhouse chemistry is a constantly changing thing everywhere, but some players can have a much bigger impact on it than others, and sometimes that impact shows in all kinds of ways, which a lot of us saw this year. those who think two world series mean that problems with manny weren't serious (or serious enough) may be right -- but not this year. that seems obvious from the outcome (the "trade," at a big loss), for starters.

 

i get a kick out of schilling, and not always the good kind. he does talk too much and can be arrogant, to put it mildly. i do think he has been right in the past on most things he's had a long time to look at or think about, when he isn't just running off at the mouth on the spur of the moment about something that happened two days ago or two minutes ago, and i tend to think his observations of manny and opinion of impact on the team are honest, and probably close to the truth.

 

nothing to do with manny, but schilling pissed me off bigtime when immediately after the world series was won in 2004 (edited!) he traveled up to new hampshire to stump with george w bush in his campaign for re-election. he took the shine off the euphoria for quite a few people. he could have at least waited a week or two. still annoys me -- obviously. i like NOT knowing the players' politics, no matter what they are.

[Sir Stewart]

I can't stand Bush, and his reelection pretty much soured me on presidential elections, but for some reason I loved that Schilling stumped for Bush and co at that time. I guess because it was a show of honesty, if nothing else.

[sweetheart-mine]

I can't stand Bush, and his reelection pretty much soured me on presidential elections, but for some reason I loved that Schilling stumped for Bush and co at that time. I guess because it was a show of honesty, if nothing else.

schilling had given many shows of honesty, so i wished not to have that one.

 

um, were you still imbibing due to the championship?

[Sir Stewart]

schilling had given many shows of honesty, so i wished not to have that one.

 

um, were you still imbibing due to the championship?

Possibly.

Hell I was still high off the '04 win last year when they won again.

[sweetheart-mine]

Possibly.

Hell I was still high off the '04 win last year when they won again.

now that you mention it, the '07 win was a lot more fun for me; '04 was such a shock that i went nearly catatonic. also, papelbon's exuberant craziness at the end of last year was contagious, especially his dancing, which bjorn the mets fan loved too ( ). and "tessie" still gives me chills. well, don't want to make others sick with this nostalgia! maybe it's too late.

[Lammycat]

Plenty of teams do well when they hate each other. Plenty of teams do well when they like each other. /Brokenrecord

True. I'd be willing to bet that teams that do well gel in the clubhouse better than teams that do not gel well. It isn't just the clubhouse but spending 8 months a year with the same guys, too. Not to drag this up again, but plenty of professional athletes (not just baseball players) have cited clubhouse chemistry as a factor that matters in success.

 

It all depends on the skill and abilities of the player on the team.

I disagree.

 

Manny affected the clubhouse chemistry so badly for so long that they won two World Series.

I think the gist of what has come out in the press is that he was negatively impacting the team towards the end of his time in BOS. Not for nothing, but they've had a pretty decent record witout him. Manny is an amazing hitter but I'll take the word of the people who played with him daily that his attitude affected the team. Even though Schilling hasn't played this year....

[MrRain422]

True. I'd be willing to bet that teams that do well gel in the clubhouse better than teams that do not gel well. It isn't just the clubhouse but spending 8 months a year with the same guys, too. Not to drag this up again, but plenty of professional athletes (not just baseball players) have cited clubhouse chemistry as a factor that matters in success.

 

I think perhaps its a chicken and egg situation. It could be that clubhouse chemistry leads to winning teams, but I think it's just as likely that winning leads to clubhouse chemistry. Winning is fun and everyone is easier to be around when you're winning.

[Sir Stewart]

Winning is fun and everyone is easier to be around when you're winning.

Except that the Red Sox were first-place contenders at the same time Manny was insufferable.

[bjorn_skurj]

Except that the Red Sox were first-place contenders at the same time Manny was insufferable.

How has Manny's departure affected Ortiz? The theory was Ortiz got better pitches to hit because of Manny looming in the on-deck circle.

[Sir Stewart]

How has Manny's departure affected Ortiz? The theory was Ortiz got better pitches to hit because of Manny looming in the on-deck circle.

I think that's a question for a stat-head. I'm not good at that stuff.

[Lammycat]

How has Manny's departure affected Ortiz? The theory was Ortiz got better pitches to hit because of Manny looming in the on-deck circle.

Ortiz was injured while Manny was sent to L.A. and since then, he's seen less better pitches. He's also just recently starting to get back to standard form, though, and Bay, Lowell and Youkilis have all been hitting well around Ortiz. So, it's not a huge difference in pitches he's seeing that are hittable/not-hittable.

 

ed. Purely an observational take, of course.

[bjorn_skurj]

I think that's a question for a stat-head. I'm not good at that stuff.

Stats kind of make my head hurt. I prefer poetic/metaphysical analysis of baseball.

[Sir Stewart]

Stats kind of make my head hurt. I prefer poetic/metaphysical analysis of baseball.

 

[bobbob1313]

I hate the implication that you can't enjoy the game on both levels. The divide between 'traditionalists' and 'stat heads' is ridiculous.

[MattZ]

I hate the implication that you can't enjoy the game on both levels. The divide between 'traditionalists' and 'stat heads' is ridiculous.

 

Bjorn didnt imply that one can't enjoy it on both levels. He said that he can't.

[cryptique]

I hate the implication that you can't enjoy the game on both levels. The divide between 'traditionalists' and 'stat heads' is ridiculous.

I don't think anyone said you can't do both.

 

I just prefer not to get bogged down with stats. I'll glance at a player's basic stats when they flash them onscreen (BA, HR, RBI), but I really don't care what his batting average is with two outs and a runner on third, or what his OPS is against left-handers after the sixth inning in games in which his team trails. If you're into that stuff, fine ... but like religion, sometimes it's best to keep it to yourself.