Our Country Has Disappeared

[jakobnicholas]

Wake up, we’re here

It’s so much worse than we feared

There’s nothing left here

Our country has disappeared

 

With the winter trees bleeding leaf red blood

And the summer sweet dreaming April blush

But none of that is ever going to mean as much to me again

 

Hold out your hand

There’s so much we don’t understand

So stick as close as you can

To all of your best laid plans

 

You’ve got the white clouds hanging so high above you

You’ve got the helicopters dangling, angling to shoot

The shots to feed the hungry weekend news crew anchormen

 

So every evening we can watch from above

Crush the cities like a bug

Fold ourselves into each other’s guts

Turn our faces up to the sun

 

I won’t take no

I won’t let you go

All by yourself

I know you need my help

 

When the cold light shakes you like a chandelier

The snowflakes break through the atmosphere

And melt on the blue breath of the auctioneers and disappear

 

So every evening we can watch from above

Crush the cities like a bug

Fold ourselves into each other’s blood

Turn our faces up to the sun

 

 

I find it interesting that, although Jeff penned this song when Bush was in the White House and thinking back on W's 8 years, this song sounds very topical to me. Obama's approval ratings are below 50 percent, unemployment seems to be still dropping and the economy took another slight dip in July. Obama's handling of the auto industry and the Cash for Clunkers program are controversial to say the least. Small business owners seem a little nervous. The country seems confused as hell about health care....a majority is against Obama's plan. North Korea, Afghanistan, Iraq all seem as dangerous as ever.

 

I'll admit, it's kinda nice to have a President who can pronounce words. But some might argue they see our country disappearing more now than before.

 

 

(All the Via Chicago libs can now flame away...)

[MattZ]

Why didn't you post the rest of the lyrics to that song?

[Guest Speed Racer]

Why didn't you post the rest of the lyrics to that song?

 

Because he didn't want to include the key line that answers his own question:

 

I won’t take no

I won’t let you go

All by yourself

I know you need my help

 

In fact, Jeff himself was offering to lead us out of this misery. This is actually the first popular song to suggest we oust Obama from office - and from a liberal, to boot!

[Preferred B]

So this is a thread about Wilco? Really? Really?

[Wilco2332]

So this is a thread about Wilco? Really? Really?

That's what I was thinking, even though it's about the song "Country" I don't think it applies to being about the band.

[OOO]

Unemployment dropping is a good thing, for the record.

[Beltmann]

But some might argue they see our country disappearing more now than before.

Is our country disappearing more now than before? Perhaps, but it has less to do with Obama's policies--which are well within the political mainstream--and more to do with how the opposition has succumbed to unserious fear-mongering and, at times, utter derangement. I think the greatest threat to the idea of America isn't health care reform but the way mainstream conservatism is now defined by a kind of cartoonish demagoguery. Once conservatism was defined by serious Goldwater or Buckley types, but now it's dominated by embarrassing Sarah Palin and Sean Hannity types, whose entire political game is predicated upon ginning up fear and vitriol as a brand of populist fascism. That is the greatest threat to our democracy. After all, when so many right-leaning Americans now consider Glenn Beck a reasonable spokesman for their views, how can we expect to have serious, honest democratic debate and discourse in this country?

 

There are indeed serious, respectable conservative voices out there. The trouble is, they are being willfully marginalized by their own side, and no longer represent the mainstream of modern conservatism.

[bleedorange]

Is our country disappearing more now than before? Perhaps, but it has less to do with Obama's policies--which are well within the political mainstream--and more to do with how the opposition has succumbed to unserious fear-mongering and, at times, utter derangement. I think the greatest threat to the idea of America isn't health care reform but the way mainstream conservatism is now defined by a kind of cartoonish demagoguery. Once conservatism was defined by serious Goldwater or Buckley types, but now it's dominated by embarrassing Sarah Palin and Sean Hannity types, whose entire political game is predicated upon ginning up fear and vitriol as a brand of populist fascism. That is the greatest threat to our democracy. After all, when so many right-leaning Americans now consider Glenn Beck a reasonable spokesman for their views, how can we expect to have serious, honest democratic debate and discourse in this country?

 

There are indeed serious, respectable conservative voices out there. The trouble is, they are being willfully marginalized by their own side, and no longer represent the mainstream of modern conservatism.

 

So is all opposition to health care reform out of the political mainstream? Do you really think that Nancy Pelosi and Barack Obama haven't resorted to their own brand of politics based on prejudice, fear, or emotion?

 

Is the following statement by Charles Grassley completely off-base:

 

"The bill passed by the House committees is so poorly cobbled together that it will have all kinds of unintended consequences, including making taxpayers fund health care subsidies for illegal immigrants. On the end-of-life issue, there’s a big difference between a simple educational campaign, as some advocates want, and the way the House committee-passed bill pays physicians to advise patients about end of life care and rates physician quality of care based on the creation of and adherence to orders for end-of-life care, while at the same time creating a government-run program that is likely to lead to the rationing of care for everyone. On the Finance Committee, we are working very hard to avoid unintended consequences by methodically working through the complexities of all of these issues and policy options. That methodical approach continues. We dropped end-of-life provisions from consideration entirely because of the way they could be misinterpreted and implemented incorrectly. Maybe others can defend a bill like the Pelosi bill that leaves major issues open to interpretation, but I can’t."

[Beltmann]

So is all opposition to health care reform out of the political mainstream?

 

There are indeed serious, respectable conservative voices out there.

 

Be serious, bleedorange. You are better than that.

 

Of course there are fair criticisms of the health care proposals, and of course many of those criticisms are well within the political mainstream. Some of them are even pretty smart. But that's irrelevant to my larger point, which is that smart and serious conservatives are not driving the conversation right now, whether the topic is health care, war, the economy, torture, etc. Such voices are being drowned out as the modern conservative movement in general abandons its serious traditions in favor of a paranoid, reactionary, and dangerous anti-intellectualism. What once was laughed at as fringe lunacy is now embraced as mainstream politics. This ugly transformation is not a new development; in fact, it's precisely what prompted me to jump ship in the mid-'90s.

 

You are a smart conservative. Aren't you horrified that 58% of self-described Republican voters are unconvinced our president is a citizen? Aren't you horrified by the fact that a large majority of Republican voters see Sarah Palin as their avatar? What would be the equivalent on the left? I dunno. I know I'd be horrified if a wide majority of Democrats suddenly considered, say, Bill Maher or Michael Moore to be their top choice for president.

[bjorn_skurj]

1. It might help if one thinks of illegal immigrants as fellow human beings. Illegal immigrants are not here because of the thrill of leading a covert life away from their families and homes. They are here because our capitalist economy likes to have workers they don't have to pay as much for and the shit deal that they get here is better than what they have at home. They aren't going anywhere (what, are you gonna round up and deport 12 million people? That'll be the day.) and as they are human beings, they will get sick. Now, will these and other people who don't have insurance, when they get sick, just say, "Well, since I don't have insurance or the money to pay the hospital bill, I am just going to lay down and die so I don't cost the taxpayer money"? No. They will seek medical care from the emergency room, which is the most expensive medical care there is, and often far too late to do much good. I understand people who object to giving other people health care that they (and I, at the tune of $44.20 a week) pay good money for. But holy shit, at some point the principle has to yield to the facts on the ground, and it seems to me more cost-effective to try to get the 40-plus million people without health insurance some kind of preventive medicine. I continue to point out that socialized medicine seems to work fine for every other industrialized nation in the world and, according to Dr. Sanjay Gupta, the U.S. is 38th in the world in patient outcomes. Is that really something to be proud of?

2. Only three U.S. states - Oregon, Washington and Montana - allow any form of assisted suicide. Unless the health care bill legalizes that across the country, how can there be "death panels"? Do people really believe that insurance companies and HMOs don't ration care now?

[Gobias Industries]

Beltmann: 1. Everyone else: 0.

 

Just to add something, though, illegal immigrants have been dumping money into Social Security and getting 0 of the benefits (since they don't typically stay to reap the rewards), so in a sense they have been getting the short end of the stick for awhile. While as illegal immigrants they arguably shouldn't really be given the full spectrum of rights or whatever, to deny them any sort of money for their health care (which for them is virtually nothing given the types of jobs they typically take) seems contrary to humanistic behavior.

[ikol]

If socialized medicine works so well in other nations why do people buy individual insurance on top of the government plan in a lot of these nations? The "death panels" refers to government bureaucrats deciding when to withhold care, not actively kill people. Now there are many cases where withholding care is a good thing, and in this country we are often too aggressive with care without thinking about quality of life. I just don't think someone hired by Nancy Pelosi should be involved in the decision. Our life expectancy in this country is 78, compared to about 79-80 in other places. Even assuming that this is due to medical care and not the myriad other factors that contribute, how freaking long do you want to live?

[MattZ]

FWIW, my point above, about the rest of the lyrics, is that I think the OP (and everyone else?) is taking a very literal (narrow?) view of what I would consider to be a pretty beautiful and anything but concrete song. And mostly because we are only looking at two snippets from the song out of context.

 

I dont know if Jeff has said explicitly that this song is about Bush, but I take this song to be about much more than Bush. I think it is the cousin of Impossible Germany, and what it means to be a country, and what we value, and the GOTCHA nature of media, and maybe even the transience of our art, or how everything has a price. And it may be the prelude to Everlasting Everything -- the naivete (?) of putting faith in something like country, when really, everlasting love is all you have.

 

I don't think Jeff is blaming Bush for the winter trees bleeding leaf red blood.

 

I am tired of everything about everything being a fight these days. Like this thread, now. Maybe that's what Jeff is talking about. If you want to say that's about Bush, I say that's the most narrow view of it.

[caliber66]

I just don't think someone hired by Nancy Pelosi should be involved in the decision.

Who should hire the person who decides whether or not you have your care withheld? The profit-driven millionaire who runs your HMO?

[ikol]

That's certainly better than Nancy Pelosi. At least the profit-driven millionaire has an understandable reason to let me die.

 

All sarcasm aside, at least with a private system I can look at all the available plans and decide what I like. If a plan has a record of offing old people, and I want to live long enough to get dementia, I can go with another plan. With a government-funded/run plan, it's only possible to change the plan if I can convince a couple hundred million other people that what I want is right, and even then, the resulting legislation is going to end up being some over-complicated, morbidly obese bill full of special interest provisions and rushed to passage so that legislators can have it on their resume in time for reelection.

[bleedorange]

You are a smart conservative. Aren't you horrified that 58% of self-described Republican voters are unconvinced our president is a citizen? Aren't you horrified by the fact that a large majority of Republican voters see Sarah Palin as their avatar? What would be the equivalent on the left? I dunno. I know I'd be horrified if a wide majority of Democrats suddenly considered, say, Bill Maher or Michael Moore to be their top choice for president.

 

Yes and Yes. I was being argumentative. But I don't see a whole lot from the leadership of the other side of the political spectrum that gives me great comfort or solace that they have the best interests of this country at heart. Beginning with Obama and Pelosi and ending with the confirmation of Sonia Sotomayor.

 

When did the shift from Bill Clinton to what we have now occur? With G. W. Bush and now Obama, I think we have the two most divisive presidents we have seen. Of course, I could find a couple of bright spots in Bush's presidency. I just don't understand why a costly government health care option is the best idea right now. Along with cap-and-trade. Along with stimulus money that isn't even being used. While our deficit goes up, unemployment goes up, the dollar weakens, etc.

 

And why is everything so rushed? Our system is set up to be slow and require debate. We're voting on bills that haven't even been written, much less read.

[caliber66]

That's certainly better than Nancy Pelosi. At least the profit-driven millionaire has an understandable reason to let me die.

 

All sarcasm aside, at least with a private system I can look at all the available plans and decide what I like. If a plan has a record of offing old people, and I want to live long enough to get dementia, I can go with another plan. With a government-funded/run plan, it's only possible to change the plan if I can convince a couple hundred million other people that what I want is right, and even then, the resulting legislation is going to end up being some over-complicated, morbidly obese bill full of special interest provisions and rushed to passage so that legislators can have it on their resume in time for reelection.

Is the proposed government plan a single-payer system, or an option to HMOs/private health insurance that many people cannot afford? As I understand it, under the government plan you would have the option of choosing between the government option and one less likely to decide your great uncle Chuck is unfit to live.

[Guest Speed Racer]

illegal immigrants have been dumping money into Social Security and getting 0 of the benefits (since they don't typically stay to reap the rewards)

 

To clarify, ALL immigrants dump money into social security, legal or not, and there are just as many legal immigrants I'd wager, if not more. Most stay temporarily, and few illegal OR legal immigrants ever become green card holders.

 

And to clarify again (this part's just a pet peeve), it doesn't matter whether illegals stay or not, they don't receive social security benefits when they are 'of age,' unless through a major fluke of trickery or theft that they frankly aren't interested in. And contrary to about 1,000,000 myths, it is extraordinarily hard to transition from illegal to legal status in the United States.

[Good Old Neon]

 

 

All sarcasm aside, at least with a private system I can look at all the available plans and decide what I like. If a plan has a record of offing old people, and I want to live long enough to get dementia, I can go with another plan.

 

For what it’s worth, my employer (hell, every employer I’ve ever worked for) offers one choice – sure, I could shop around for a better plan, one that is not supplemented by my employer, but I have a mortgage to pay, and cannot afford that luxury.

[jakobnicholas]

FWIW, my point above, about the rest of the lyrics, is that I think the OP (and everyone else?) is taking a very literal (narrow?) view of what I would consider to be a pretty beautiful and anything but concrete song. And mostly because we are only looking at two snippets from the song out of context.

 

I dont know if Jeff has said explicitly that this song is about Bush, but I take this song to be about much more than Bush.

 

 

 

Jeff's quote, pertaining to this song in a Rolling Stone article, said how he felt so "beaten down after 8 crappy years" (that's pretty close, from what I remember), that he penned this song as kind of a hopeful song for the future. In the same article he talked about being excited to have Obama be the next President. If anyone is being narrow, maybe it's Mr. Tweedy.

 

But yes, it IS a beautiful song, and it IS much more than just a song-writer feeling blue over a President.

 

One thing I CAN understand from Conservtives is that there doesn't seem to be too much compromise with Obama. Obama seems to have his ideas, and damnit, he's gonna shove them through with his majority in Congress. Bush, to the frustration of many Conservatives, worked with the Democrats on a number of issues.

[Beltmann]

For what it’s worth, my employer (hell, every employer I’ve ever worked for) offers one choice – sure, I could shop around for a better plan, one that is not supplemented by my employer, but I have a mortgage to pay, and cannot afford that luxury.

Same here. Policy shouldn't be based upon theoretical options, but upon realistic options.

[Guest Speed Racer]

Bush, to the frustration of many Conservatives, worked with the Democrats on a number of issues.

 

The GOP didn't have a majority ANYWHERE during the last few years in office. You can't say Bush wouldn't have done the same thing Obama's doing, because that's just speculation on your part.

 

Policy shouldn't be based upon theoretical options, but upon realistic options.

 

I'm a lucky SOB. I work at a small business and one of the long-termers has some chronic health issues. Our health care is fantastic - just short of having little cherubs on our shoulders to wipe our noses for us. No dental, but at least that keeps me flossing.

[Good Old Neon]

I find it interesting that, although Jeff penned this song when Bush was in the White House and thinking back on W's 8 years, this song sounds very topical to me. Obama's approval ratings are below 50 percent, unemployment seems to be still dropping and the economy took another slight dip in July. Obama's handling of the auto industry and the Cash for Clunkers program are controversial to say the least. Small business owners seem a little nervous. The country seems confused as hell about health care....a majority is against Obama's plan. North Korea, Afghanistan, Iraq all seem as dangerous as ever.

 

I'll admit, it's kinda nice to have a President who can pronounce words. But some might argue they see our country disappearing more now than before.

 

 

(All the Via Chicago libs can now flame away...)

 

I’m curious as to why you chose to defer your comments regarding the state of the nation until now, and not last year, or the year before, when the person who bears much if not most of the responsibility for our current predicament was still in office. And what, exactly, is disappearing?

 

I agree that we’re sort of in the shitter right now, and at times, it feels as though we’re circling the bowl, but this is not just a liberal issue, it’s a let’s take a long hard look at the facts and see what led us here type of issue – and if you do that, I think you’ll see that our current predicament has a hell of a lot more to do with eight plus years of mismanagement and a lack of oversight, from both democrats and republicans, and quite a bit less to do with 8-month’s worth of Obama’s policies – which are, as Beltmann (so awesomely) pointed out, by no means outside the mainstream.

 

If the country is confused about health care, it has less to do with the actual plan, though the Administration’s case in favor of leaves a lot to be desired, and more to do with the way in which republicans have framed the issue, i.e. - soviet-era-like rationing and death panels populated by nefarious bureaucrats who would, a.) like nothing more than to make compost of the elderly, and b.) ensure that the Special Olympics folds due to a lack of available participants.

[bjorn_skurj]

If socialized medicine works so well in other nations why do people buy individual insurance on top of the government plan in a lot of these nations? The "death panels" refers to government bureaucrats deciding when to withhold care, not actively kill people. Now there are many cases where withholding care is a good thing, and in this country we are often too aggressive with care without thinking about quality of life. I just don't think someone hired by Nancy Pelosi should be involved in the decision. Our life expectancy in this country is 78, compared to about 79-80 in other places. Even assuming that this is due to medical care and not the myriad other factors that contribute, how freaking long do you want to live?

As long as I can, I suppose, but not if it is going to be in agony. This is a passage from Jane Brody to me for a story I wrote: Brody attributed the never-say-die attitudetoward dying to a health-care industry that gets paid for doing as muchas it can, even if what it does is pointless. "If we may be crass for amoment, physicians and hospitals don't get paid for doing nothing.Doctors and hospitals get paid for interventions...They get majorreimbursements for feeding tubes, but they don't get reimbursements forsitting down and feeding them."

So if this is true, then perhaps doctors need to be reined in by bureaucrats, if they are just needlessly extending people's lives, just adding on "garbage time" at the cost of billions, which would be better spent on things that would make people healthier earlier on in life, and thus healthier in their old age.

Y'know, what it ultimately comes down to (and this is the part that many people in this country can't take) is that we will all have to give up some of our choices and options to provide some level of health care for everyone.

[uncle wilco]

It's been fun reading up on the predictable Via Chicago political bent.

Haven't missed much, I see.

 

Don't mind me, I'll just be over here...