The New Atheists

[Guest Speed Racer]

GON touched on this but I'd like to answer too. "Believing" bothers me a bit because it seems to hinder the search for truth. If there are serious irrefutable answers to the "big questions" we'll never find them if we all decide to settle on "faith" and stop looking, stop investigating, stop searching for truth. I'd like us to keep looking until we find better explanations than "I believe..." or "the Bible says..." y'know?

 

My question should have been phrased to address the problems with participating in religious practices. But as for the statement as it stands, are you saying that those active in religious practices don't ask the "big questions"? That they completely cease to wonder or participate in any sort of introspection or philosophizing simply because they, let's say, accept Jesus as their lord and savior? Surely, some people do, but there are also secular people who haven't done a damned thing toward asking big questions. It's not unique to religion, and questioning is not unique to the secular realm.

[jff]

 

 

With the initial question about God not being involved with the children in Serbia I would say that God has foreordained all those acts to happen. God is all sovereign and we know that all things that happen are meant to glorify God and through all things (whether good or evil) God is still in control. A great sermon by John Piper is "Is God less glorious because He ordain evil be?"

 

 

If this is true, then virtually every prayer is an attempt to get God to see the error of his ways and change course.

 

How far in advance has God foreordained things? For all eternity? In that case, what is the point of God still existing?

[M. (hristine]

I won’t apologize for finding that insane and entirely unacceptable. Nor will I apologize for feeling the same way with regards to using religion to obstruct stem cell research, among a host of other issues.

 

The dilemmas faced by couples with leftover embryos are enormous. The implications of growing embryos specifically for stem cells are complex. These are ethical issues, not religious.

 

That issues of medical ethics become nothing more than an intellectual crowbar against religion is appalling to me.

[Guest Speed Racer]

If this is true, then virtually every prayer is an attempt to get God to see the error of his ways and change course.

 

Assuming those who pray are asking for God to see the error of his ways and change course.

 

"God grant me patience..."

"God help me get through this..."

"God, I'm pretty damned scared..."

 

I could go on - but you know there are more than a million ways to pray that don't ask for concrete changes (ala "God, make those bastards stop spearing those babies.")

[yermom]

My question should have been phrased to address the problems with participating in religious practices. But as for the statement as it stands, are you saying that those active in religious practices don't ask the "big questions"? That they completely cease to wonder or participate in any sort of introspection or philosophizing simply because they, let's say, accept Jesus as their lord and savior?

 

My answer to this is pretty much there in the rest of your post:

Surely, some people do, but there are also secular people who haven't done a damned thing toward asking big questions. It's not unique to religion, and questioning is not unique to the secular realm.

 

My use of phrases like "seems to" and "bothers me a bit" can be taken as indicators that I don't confess to know much of anything.

[bjorn_skurj]

I am not in favor of any religion which would make its believers disregard the reason God gave them. Science should, at least in the eyes of this no-show low-church Episcopalian, be unrestrained in its exploration and comprehension of the vast universe/work of art God created. God is the Prime Mover and the Primal Atom - the Big Bang, maturation of the universe and evolution (on this planet and any others upon which it may be occurring) IS God, I believe. But others are free to believe what they choose to - without free will, what was the point of creation in the first place?

[Guest Speed Racer]

My use of phrases like "seems to" and "bothers me a bit" can be taken as indicators that I don't confess to know much of anything.

 

It seems to me that there are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know. This bothers me a bit.

[Good Old Neon]

It seems to me that there are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know. This bothers me a bit.

 

Well said Mr. Rumsfeld.

[jff]

Assuming those who pray are asking for God to see the error of his ways and change course.

 

"God grant me patience..."

"God help me get through this..."

"God, I'm pretty damned scared..."

 

I could go on - but you know there are more than a million ways to pray that don't ask for concrete changes (ala "God, make those bastards stop spearing those babies.")

 

Most prayers ask for the solution to a problem, which is a pretty concrete change.

 

Most of the times I am asked to pray for something, or I hear or read of a call to prayer on behalf of something or someone (which happens almost every day), it is because some kid got cancer, or someone is in the hospital after a car crash (all God's doing, of course).

 

I went to catholic school and hearsd lots of prayers. I don't recall any prayers that acknowledged that perhaps God really did want that kid to die of cancer.

[Guest Speed Racer]

Most prayers

 

Statistics, please?

 

You heard a lot of prayers in Catholic school, but I've heard a lot of prayers in my time too, and I'm pretty sure neither of us has heard even close to 0.01% of the world's prayers. Just sayin'.

[yermom]

It seems to me that there are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know. This bothers me a bit.

[jff]

Statistics, please?

 

You heard a lot of prayers in Catholic school, but I've heard a lot of prayers in my time too, and I'm pretty sure neither of us has heard even close to 0.01% of the world's prayers. Just sayin'.

 

 

 

Ok, so...

 

Most prayers I've heard, participated in, or have been asked to participate in.

 

Are you trying to tell me that most of the world's prayers AREN'T of the "please fix this problem" variety?

 

No way of knowing, right?

 

And yet, here I am pretending I know.

[Atticus]

From the Gospel according to St. Matthew:

 

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

 

my post referred to spiritual people advertising or promoting THEMSELVES--as in "look at what a great Christian I am, send my church [me] money"

 

I wasn't saying that religious people don't attempt to teach others about their beliefs. It is also one thing to share one's beliefs and entirely another to beat others over the head with them

 

As for me, I don't believe that I have any business telling anyone whether God is involved in baby spearings. God didn't tell me about that. I do know that I've seen God work in my life, and that's not something that someone else's words can affect. For me it's certain. But I feel no compulsion to work toward making any of you agree with me.

 

I also can't imagine my God asking me to kill anyone for God. Apparently others have had wildly different experiences.

[Good Old Neon]

Speed Racer

 

I was just pointing out the futility of saying that someone is crazy/self-centered/vain if they declare god has a plan for them when you yourself saying that there is NO god and there is NO plan and YOU KNOW THAT FOR SURE is equally as crazy/self-centered/vain.

 

I base that assumption on a total lack of evidence, whereas a believer is more likely to view a lack of evidence as a precursor to faith. If strong empirical evidence pointing to the existence of god were to arise, I’d weigh it and rethink my position – but as it stands, given we don’t have any, an anti-theist positions strikes me as the most logical. We cannot say for sure that the universe is not perched precariously atop a turtles back, but until I see some pretty strong evidence, I’ll remain an atheist in that regard as well. I attribute about as much respect to invisible, mute, really shy deities as I do leprechauns, faeries, unicorns, dragons and the remainder of the world’s imagined menagerie of fantastical creatures. And now and but again, if, while making my way home tonight, I come across a leprechaun atop a unicorn being pursued by a dragon, I would grant them a little bit more respect – unless they caused a traffic jam, which, in that case, they could all go fuck themselves.

 

Speed Racer

 

If a woman seeks the counsel of her pastor/rabbi as she suffers from post-partum depression, is that not better than seeking no help at all?

 

It is if the only prescription is to return home and pray. That may provide a brief respite, but it will do nothing to alleviate the very real underlying physical causes of the depression. In the very least, I would hope she would be advised to stop by the hospital on her way home from the rectory. But then, why is the choice between no help, and a rabbi? Why not seek medical counsel?

 

If we’re going to afford religious counsel the same level of seriousness as medical care, what is your opinion of parents who do not seek treatment for their children on religious grounds, and instead choose to pray? Should we sacrifice these children at the alter of their parents beliefs?

 

I agree that much of psychology is bunk, but to a large degree, that is because until quite recently, we’ve addressed mental health using outdated methods that don’t take into account our evolutionary biology. There is some amazing research being done in the field of evolutionary psychology and neuroscience, but again, these answers, insofar as they can be answered, will come from scientific inquiry, not scripture.

 

Speed Racer

 

Forgive me for not having numbers handy, but I'm pretty sure that scientific studies have shown that families active in religious communities (ancient theologies, let's say) are either healthier/happier or as healthy/happy as their secular peers. For whatever it's worth, I do know that Turkish migrants in the Netherlands in the early 2000s who were active in their local mosques had a much higher rate of civic participation in the Netherlands than their secular-turned peers.

 

I don’t know, but I do know I was much happier when I still believed in the Easter Bunny, Santa, and a well made piece of inexpensive furniture. But seriously, I wouldn’t be surprised if, on average, believers are happier than their secular cousins. Going through life with the belief that everything is looked after, taken care of, and if you behave, you’ve got a pretty good shot at spending eternity in paradise is pretty sweet. Unfounded? In my opinion, yes, but still pretty sweet.

[Guest Speed Racer]

No way of knowing, right?

 

Yep, that's all I was trying to say. That, and how it's never productive to assume you know exactly what more than a billion people are doing.

[Good Old Neon]

Yep, that's all I was trying to say. That, and how it's never productive to assume you know exactly what more than a billion people are doing.

 

I'd be willing to bet that half of them are thinking about doing it, and the half that are not, are sleeping.

[jff]

Yep, that's all I was trying to say. That, and how it's never productive to assume you know exactly what more than a billion people are doing.

 

That's kind of preachy and obnoxious. See you in another thread.

[Guest Speed Racer]

In the very least, I would hope she would be advised to stop by the hospital on her way home from the rectory. But then, why is the choice between no help, and a rabbi? Why not seek medical counsel?

 

If a woman is going to be spending an hour a week treating her depression through talk-based therapy, and if she is more comfortable in the hands of a spiritual adviser than a medical professional, I imagine she would have far more success with the spiritual adviser.

 

If we’re going to afford religious counsel the same level of seriousness as medical care, what is your opinion of parents who do not seek treatment for their children on religious grounds, and instead choose to pray? Should we sacrifice these children at the alter of their parents beliefs?

 

Nowhere did I say I condoned religious counsel in lieu of medical care, but that medical care has its weaknesses all the same as religious counsel. In some cases, I think people would benefit greatly if they were much less medicated, and in other cases I think they could lay off the Jesus-juice a bit.

 

That being said, I think in the face of a fatal, incurable disease, parents should be able to opt whether to extend the life of their child that many more months. In the face of maladies that are fatal if untreated, obviously parents should be legally bound to treat minors under their care.

 

Going through life with the belief that everything is looked after, taken care of, and if you behave, you’ve got a pretty good shot at spending eternity in paradise is pretty sweet. Unfounded? In my opinion, yes, but still pretty sweet.

 

Or it could simply have something to do with the socio-cultural aspects of belonging to a tight-knit community. A lot of people don't get that kind of relationship with their literal neighbors, but find a world of support - baby-sitting networks, dinners when they're ill, and simply some forced socialization with like-minded people - in a church or spiritual community. Again, not all the benefits of spirituality and religion have to do with god-coated unicorns.

[SarahC]

Ok, so...

 

Most prayers I've heard, participated in, or have been asked to participate in.

 

Are you trying to tell me that most of the world's prayers AREN'T of the "please fix this problem" variety?

 

No way of knowing, right?

 

And yet, here I am pretending I know.

That's a major assumption you jump to there. I praise God in prayer everyday for the gifts He has given me... I would argue there are just as many prayers requesting God to DO something, as there are THANKING God for what He has already done.

[Guest Speed Racer]

I'd be willing to bet that half of them are thinking about doing it, and the half that are not, are sleeping.

 

Well betting and assuming are two very different things.

[jff]

That's a major assumption you jump to there. I praise God in prayer everyday for the gifts He has given me... I would argue there are just as many prayers requesting God to DO something, as there are THANKING God for what He has already done.

 

That's a good point. There's the "thank you" variety and the "fix this for me" variety. However, it seems to me (from experience) that people are more inclined to pray, or to ask for prayers on their opr their loved one/friend/etc.'s behalf, when things get kind of rotten, so I think the "fix this for me" variety is significantly more common.

[Kevan]

I grew up irreligious. The first prayers I remember, uh..., placing(?) were for my team to win the game from the hockey bench between shifts. Those prayers seemed to work about as often as they didn't. I'm not now religious. (hockey was very important to me.)

[Atticus]

I imagine God gets quite a kick out of people using prayer to ask for results.

[Guest Speed Racer]

That's a good point. There's the "thank you" variety and the "fix this for me" variety. It seems to me that people are more inclined to pray, or to ask for prayers on their behalf, when things get kind of rotten, so I think the "fix this for me" variety is much more common.

 

You can definitely pray on someone's behalf without asking god to change any circumstances. In my youth I was present for a lot of, "Keep in him your heart and watch over him; stay with him in his time of need" kind of stuff. I never, ever heard any, "Save little Johnny from the cancer" prayers, but then my particular church of Presbyterians was pretty passive-aggressive.

[jff]

I grew up irreligious. The first prayers I remember, uh..., placing(?) were for my team to win the game from the hockey bench between shifts. Those prayers seemed to work about as often as they didn't. I'm not now religious. (hockey was very important to me.)

 

Did you thank God when you won, or did you forget all about the prayer?