Ted Kennedy to be succeeded by a toolbag

[Doug C]

Sorry, did I insult your binky?

Behold the power of The Google!!

http://shrinkwrapped.blogs.com/blog/2009/12/the-ant-and-the-grasshopper.html

[ZenLunatic]

Be content with taxes is putting way to much trust in our government. How can you trust the system that just gave billions to banks who lost billions and now paying CEO billions in bonuses? Your tax money paying for fat cats, its not helping like you think it is.

[bobbob1313]

That was a terribly offensive and insultingly oversimplified analogy.

 

It's like a bad Glenn Beck Mad Lib.

[ZenLunatic]

That was a terribly offensive and insultingly oversimplified analogy.

 

is it not true?

[bobbob1313]

is it not true?

 

I was talking about what JohnO said.

[JohnO]

No consent or anything? Like, the Feds just came in and replaced her hip? That's so James Bond.

 

More seriously: I'm curious to know whether it takes you two weeks to pay all of your health care insurance costs for the year, even the one your employer assumes (I'm assumimg you have health care through your employer), or does it just take one pay check to pay all of your out-of-pocket costs for the year? Some people are decidedly healthier than others; that doesn't mean they will always be that way. I'm pretty confident most of the taxes I pay go to programs I don't use, and likely never will; I'll also assume the same goes for you. Does this bother you? What are your opinions on health care costs in general? Do you think they're too high?

 

She consented.

 

Two weeks to pay my premiums and out of pocket expenses. My employer pays half. But I'm only talking about comes out of my salary. My employer also has to match SS/Medicare/Medicaid. I'm at an age where I'm using more services. I've paid into these programs for 40 years and it doesn't bother me a bit. What bothers me is the attitude that we're just going to have to pay more. I pay enough thank you. Health care cost are high but government has never shown that it can run a program without bankrupting it (SS & Medicare) because they continually pass unfunded mandates to bribe voters. Hell look at what Obama is out there touting today, "doubling the child care tax credit" and not a word of how he's going to pay for it. That's what bothers me!

[Atticus]

Hell look at what Obama is out there touting today, "doubling the child care tax credit" and not a word of how he's going to pay for it. That's what bothers me!

 

why do you hate children?

[Guest Speed Racer]

She consented.

 

So she got a hip replacement, knowing she was ill but certainly not knowing her outcome. Unless the government did this without her consent, or knew the exact date that she would die, I fail to see why this reflects poorly on the government.

 

Two weeks to pay my premiums and out of pocket expenses. My employer pays half.

 

So your true medical expenses are another month of salary, and also constitute one-fifth of what you pay to the government.

 

What bothers me is the attitude that we're just going to have to pay more. I pay enough thank you.

 

You do realize that, under universal health care, you would not be paying those other health care expenses on top of what you are already paying, right?

 

Hell look at what Obama is out there touting today, "doubling the child care tax credit" and not a word of how he's going to pay for it. That's what bothers me!

 

That was in a meeting - there were no bills passed - as a part of a Task Force meant to identify problems and discuss possible solutions. No laws were passed. Do you solve every problem you approach, completely, the first time you sit down to take a look at it?

[ZenLunatic]

I agree with JohnO on the fact that the government has a horrible track record on running programs. Why should we trust them with healthcare? The reason healthcare is so expensive is because of them in the first place.

[D-Dogg]

One of the main reasons healthcare is so expensive is because of the government in the first place.

 

Fixed.

 

Other reasons among the 1000s:

Unfair competition

Prices are hidden / no transparency

Employer based health care

Tort costs (having 1000 of plaintiffs asking for millions and one defendant can be pretty expensive)

Individuals going to the Doctor for a cold and paying with their insurance

Overall health of Americans.

[Edie]

So she got a hip replacement, knowing she was ill but certainly not knowing her outcome. Unless the government did this without her consent, or knew the exact date that she would die, I fail to see why this reflects poorly on the government.

 

This is like the anti-"death squad". We will give you health care services no matter your condition!

[ikol]

I agree that $200,000 is more than enough to live comfortably on, but I think some of the resentment of having to pay higher taxes comes from the fact that half the nation pays no federal income taxes other than Medicare/SS. With those kind of numbers, we're not talking about just those living in poverty. And most of the proposed healthcare changes are going to benefit those same people more so than those paying a third of their income in taxes. I'm not saying everyone should be paying 30%, but to expect "free" healthcare without making even a modest tax contribution is insane.

[monster]

I agree with JohnO on the fact that the government has a horrible track record on running programs. Why should we trust them with healthcare? The reason healthcare is so expensive is because of them in the first place.

 

I don’t get why so many people in the US seem to be scared of the idea of universal healthcare. The current system certainly doesn’t seem to be working very well.

 

As a percentage of GDP the US spends almost double the OECD average in total on healthcare.

 

In terms of spend per capita its even higher; more than double the OECD average in total (private & public) health spending. Even the US public spend is comfortably higher than the OECD average and all but a couple of Scandinavian countries.

 

The health outcomes in the US don’t seem to be any better than other OECD countries; in fact they are below average when measured on life expectancy or infant mortality, so I don’t think you can argue that US healthcare is that much more expensive because it’s that much better.

 

So it seems other OECD countries can provide a largely government run system that provides free (or at least heavily subsidized) healthcare for anyone with acute or chronic medical conditions – at pretty much half of what it costs in the US.

 

I think this puts a bit of a dent in the argument that a government shouldn’t be allowed to run anything and it should be left to the “experts” in the private sector. I think the problem with that is that the private sector are usually more focused on outcomes like achieving a healthy return for shareholders or achieving bonuses, rather than helping as many people as possible get well again for as little cost as possible.

[Guest Speed Racer]

I'm not saying everyone should be paying 30%, but to expect "free" healthcare without making even a modest tax contribution is insane.

 

I absolutely agree, but as I said earlier, we really don't have any solid numbers on who is saying they should get "free" health care without making a modest tax contribution. Talking about "those people" doesn't really get anyone anywhere.

[ikol]

I absolutely agree, but as I said earlier, we really don't have any solid numbers on who is saying they should get "free" health care without making a modest tax contribution. Talking about "those people" doesn't really get anyone anywhere.

 

That's true, but both versions of the healthcare reform bill (and I realize you oppose them) mainly focused on adding taxes to higher income earners (whether through income tax increases or higher taxes on their health insurance premiums) to pay for the increased spending.

[bjorn_skurj]

That's the thing, though, which seems to me to be driving the opposition - the resentment of "those people" and their suspected "getting something for nothing, while I have to work for a living." I have to work for a living, too, but I count my blessings, having been born a white male in the U.S. of A. and look at it in a pragmatic way. Until people who can't afford healthcare stop seeking it when they are sick, it makes no sense to me to look at anything but a collective, ALL-INCLUSIVE solution to the problem.

[ZenLunatic]

Fixed.

 

Other reasons among the 1000s:

Unfair competition

Prices are hidden / no transparency

Employer based health care

Tort costs (having 1000 of plaintiffs asking for millions and one defendant can be pretty expensive)

Individuals going to the Doctor for a cold and paying with their insurance

Overall health of Americans.

 

HMO Act of 1973. Your reasons are mostly caused by the govt. Just because Americans get sick more doesnt skyrocket the medical prices though.

[Guest Speed Racer]

HMO Act of 1973. Your reasons are mostly caused by the govt. Just because Americans get sick more doesnt skyrocket the medical prices though.

 

Cost of Obesity for Healthcare, from the CDC

 

Cost of Obesity for Employers, from the CDC

 

For lighter fare, ABCNews reports obesity accounts for 10% of all medical costs

 

Costs of smoking, via Huffington Post

[JohnO]

why do you hate children?

 

You'll have to ask the three that I raised who show up at the house every few days with their kids to hang out with us.

[Guest Speed Racer]

And here's a goodie from HHS, published in 2004, stating that over half of Americans are on at least one prescription drug, with the elderly population on at least three.

 

And a NYTimes article about the correlation between health care spending and prescription drug spending.

[Guest Speed Racer]

Hell look at what Obama is out there touting today, "doubling the child care tax credit" and not a word of how he's going to pay for it. That's what bothers me!

 

Another day, another Hell, let's look at what Obama is out there touting today:

 

A developing story on the Washington Post homepage:

 

This year's federal budget deficit will improve slightly thanks to lower spending on the Treasury Department's bank bailout and stronger than expected economic growth, falling to $1.35 trillion from the nearly $1.4 trillion previously projected, according to congressional sources citing a new analysis set to be released Tuesday by the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office.

 

The deficit is expected to improve over the long run as well, falling to $480 billion in 2015 from previous projections of $560 billion, the sources said.

 

- Lori A. Montgomery

 

And Obama set to propose to put a freeze on government not related to defense.

[JohnO]

So she got a hip replacement, knowing she was ill but certainly not knowing her outcome. Unless the government did this without her consent, or knew the exact date that she would die, I fail to see why this reflects poorly on the government.

And there in lies the source of our disagreement.

 

So your true medical expenses are another month of salary, and also constitute one-fifth of what you pay to the government.

No my employers contribution is not part of my "salary". I don't have the option to take that as income. I could refuse the benefit and keep the premium as salary but not my employers contribution. Get it?

 

You do realize that, under universal health care, you would not be paying those other health care expenses on top of what you are already paying, right?

That's a joke right? If you believe that they're not going to raise our taxes more than what we pay today then I've got a bridge just for you.

 

That was in a meeting - there were no bills passed - as a part of a Task Force meant to identify problems and discuss possible solutions. No laws were passed. Do you solve every problem you approach, completely, the first time you sit down to take a look at it?

No that was a proposal straight from the messiah's yap. In reality it's just more of the class warfare crap that he's been pushing forever. He is the most devisive President in history. I gotta tell ya that the "that was a meeting" line brought to mind the old Mickey Rooney movies where they would all gather round to talk about a probem and he'd suddenly exclaim "Hey kids, let's put on a show!" Obama doing a poor imitation of Mickey in this case.

[Guest Speed Racer]

And there in lies the source of our disagreement.

 

I don't understand: you are angry that the government could not anticipate the exact date of her death?

 

No my employers contribution is not part of my "salary". I don't have the option to take that as income. I could refuse the benefit and keep the premium as salary but not my employers contribution. Get it?

 

Correct, but presuming your employer is not a jackass, if your place of work were not paying for these healthcare costs it would presumably have more money to pay its employees in salary.

 

That's a joke right? If you believe that they're not going to raise our taxes more than what we pay today then I've got a bridge just for you.

 

No, this is just a simple misunderstanding: I'm saying that you will not have to pay your Blue Cross (or whomever) fees on top of your new health care costs in conjunction with universal care. Yes, if you're paying $10 now you'll likely have to pay $13 later, so the total sum will be higher, but you will not be paying for a health care plan on top of a health care plan.

 

No that was a proposal straight from the messiah's yap.

 

Messiah's yap is not equal to "law;" a refresher.

[Good Old Neon]

 

He is the most devisive President in history.

 

Really, have you just awoken from an 8(+) year slumber, or are you so intellectually dishonest, that you’re simply willing to ignore 8 years of Republican malfeasance and mismanagement? I don’t know, I find institutionalized torture and manufacturing a war maybe slightly more divisive actions than attempting to push through a health care bill, but maybe that’s just me being crazy.

 

Edit: Obama’s "divisiveness" has less to do with his actions and/or his policies, and more to do with an opposition party that has become so extreme, so bent on acheiving purity, that they would eat their own. The GOP no longer tolerates even the slightest dissent within its own party, is it any wonder they’ve driven themselves to the point of being completely apeshit where the president is concerned?

[JohnO]

Another day, another Hell, let's look at what Obama is out there touting today:

 

And Obama set to propose to put a freeze on government not related to defense.

 

“Although the freeze would shave no more than $15 billion off next year's budget -- barely denting a deficit projected to exceed $1 trillion for the third year in a row…”

 

Yup he’s mad as hell and isn’t going to take it anymore! At that rate, not accounting for inflation, it will take roughly 73 years to balance the budget. And that’s change we can believe in?

 

Seeing as how he isn't submitting any legislation to back this up is he going to form a committee for recommendations or punt it over to Congress like he did with Healthcare in order to maintain plausible deniability when ultimately it goes no where?