How do you buy music? (isues, quality, quantity)

[Analogman]

 

I was reading the DLR book again last week. He should write another one.

[Sir Stewart]

I'd certainly read it.

[Analogman]

Two things I have read in the past two days about sound quality:

 

 

I don't have a link for Jack's post - as I think you have to be signed up at Third Man to read it. I found it on another message board.

 

Wednesday - May 12, 2010

Mastering notes posted by Jack White at 09:08AM

 

Hello,

 

The staff at Third Man has informed me of several letters that have been sent to the office regarding the mastering

quality of some of the records that we've released. particularly sea of cowards and icky thump, and also questions

regarding "analog" sourcing of the music to vinyl. I would like to take a second and address these questions.

 

All of the music that's been released through third man records has been recorded to analog tape.

All of the music that's been released through third man records has been mixed to analog tape.

 

Not all of the music has been cut to vinyl from analog tape. Why not? Because it's not always possible. It's not as simple as some people think. would we like to do it Every time? Of course we would.

 

For one the tape machines used at Third Man studios are highly unique and can't be found everywhere. Another reason is that if you do what's called a "cross fade" such as between the songs 'Blue Blood Blues' and 'Hustle and Cuss' on the new album, you can't mix that onto tape without having three machines of the same model type. Two to mix from, and one to mix down to. not very easy to do, and very expensive. And you lose a generation in that cross fade to boot. "Then don't put a crossfade in!" What if that's what the song desires and what the artist wants? Its not out of convenience to cross fade its about aesthetic presentation just as a dissolve in film editing takes place.

 

The first time i was able to cut direct from tape to vinyl and and afford it and make it work was the album Elephant. Why? Because the songs had no crossfades between tracks. sometimes that's not possible when sequencing an album. Also because the vinyl cutting joint in London happened to have the same tape machine as toe rag.

 

Besides this we still had to pay double the price because it was mastered to vinyl, then started all over again and mastered for digital a second time. probably cost more than the entire recording of the album did, and a BARELY noticeable difference in sound.

 

Don't mistake vinyls lower volume for "better quality" that ain't necessarily so. vinyl is always quieter and warmer, and hell i prefer it any day of the week. but if i wanted to play my album at a venue over the loudspeakers I wouldn't be playing the vinyl I'll tell you that.

 

I remember first seeing the video for 'Fell in Love With a Girl' on MTV and sat with jaw on the floor as I heard the music volume drop in half from the video that had played before it. So what do you do about that?

 

Here's a breakdown of what happens with the mastering of Sea of Cowards:

 

The master mix tape is sent to Vlado Mueller in NYC (why Vlado? I'll explain in a minute.)

 

He RENTS a tape machine that is the same model as the one we mixed to at Third Man. He masters from the tape into his computer and converts the analog signal to digital. Why?

 

Because cd's and mp3's are digital formats. Vinyl is the only analog format Third Man releases on. Why doesn't Vlado master the vinyl from the tapes? Because he doesn't have a cutting lathe in his studio. Why not?

 

Because nobody masters for vinyl anymore. Bob Ludwig (famous mastering engineer) got rid of his lathe in his studio as well.

 

We master our vinyl here in Nashville with a person who only does vinyl mastering. Why not send it out to so and so somewhere else? Because cutting vinyl "better" than the next cutter is practically indistinguishable in my opinion.

 

There's only so loud they can cut it before the needle jumps out of the groove. So they all cut it as loud as they can, which puts the signal/sound all in the same place. After that it just becomes a matter of how "well" you recorded the music. If you had two vinyl cutters cut the same record and a/b'd them on a turntable I highly doubt you could tell the difference, no matter what audiophiles tell you.

 

Why do we send the tape to someone with a lathe? I don't know! It's expensive as hell and practically not worth it.

 

We have to master the album twice. Spend twice as much money, twice as much time, and make a COPY of the mix tape which lessens a generation of the music. To get the album mastered to vinyl direct from tape in Nashville I have to load my tape machine into a truck and drive it over to the vinyl cutting lab and re set it up. And that's only if the album is perfectly sequenced onto the tape and contains no crossfades. A cd master starts to look like a pretty preferable option at that point.

 

Whenever possible Third Mman does its best though to cut from the analog source. We would never chose digital over analog out of ignorance or carelessness. "But my vinyl sounds so much less compressed than my cd!" No kidding.

 

Vinyl recordings come nowhere near the volume of digital recordings. If they could they would, but the needle would jump out of the groove. Who out there says "Make my album quieter than every other record out there!"

 

That doesn't necessarily give you "better" sound quality just because you lowered the volume. The problem only comes into play when people want things so loud they clip the entire recording for the sake of volume. We have never done that. The first master of Sea of Cowards I received did not clip, but I asked Vlado to lower the volume slightly ANYWAYS just to make sure.

 

Computer pictures of sound waves from different programs are not accurate. They don't necessarily show you the same picture we would see in the mastering studio. "I can tell that my vinyl is from a digital source."

 

No you can't. I've a/b'd them myself along with engineers and mastering professionals and you'd have to be a scientist to tell the difference. You only think that because of some outside info.

 

"My cd of Sea of Cowards is clipping! it's too loud!" Do you think that I, my engineers and assistants, the mastering engineer and his assistants, our management, the record label, etc. all heard these same recordings and IGNORED the fact that it was clipping and put it out anyway? That's insulting. Icky Thump and Sea of Cowards sound incredible on the stereo systems I listen to them on. They sound good in the studio, good in the car, good

on the home stereo, good on Youtube, and good on the radio. and good on my computer!

 

We honestly have no idea what you're talking about. don't just assume because a recording is loud and powerful (or mastered by Vlado) that it automatically has joined ignorantly into the loudness wars and is clipping beyond belief.

 

The big question is what are people listening to their records on these days? you guessed it; tiny, tiny, tiny little speakers on their computers and iPods.

 

 

Jack Lawrence said of hearing horehound on the radio:

 

"I'm so tired of hearing our songs on the radio and our music is half the volume of the song before us

and the song after us." true. it pisses me off too. You need to know something else the loudness wars started in the era of jukeboxes. even making songs short enough that they could boost the volume of the cut on a 45 to beat the other records and be heard in a loud bar. This is nothing new. The only difference is that now they have computers with extremely heavy compressors. These can be abused and overused for sure."

 

Why join in the loudness wars? We're not. But I'm not going to put out some puny, thin sounding mastering of a heavy record like Sea of Cowards when I think it should be as loud as possible WITHOUT clipping and distorting. I'm not going to do the music a disservice and have dj's not want to play it, or have it lost in the noise of a bar just to please some audiophiles holier than thou opinion of "quality".

 

It doesn't necessarily apply. I've never said "Well, Icky Thump is too loud and clipping....but that's what the people want." either. I've made our masters as loud and powerful as possible without falling victim to those pitfalls to the best of my ability.

 

When an album is mastered loud (which it should be in my opinion) you the listener adjust the volume for what medium you are listening to it on. If it's your computer, then don't turn it up to "ten", the volume of the mastering probably warrants you listen to it at say "six". Remember that your playback set up can distort the music more than anything. Some set ups can't handle bass, come can't handle volume. That's the breaks. an old 1982 Pontiac 6000

stereo wouldn't be able to handle Icky Thump if it tried. Good.

 

What's the worst part of all these decisions for a producer is that it's so incredible unexciting and uninteresting to master your records for ear buds and laptop speakers. Probably the last place an artist wants you to hear their music. It's like editing a film for the iPhone format instead of a movie theater large screen.

 

We understand hats the nature of the business now, but it's not favorable. I listen to iPods, don't get me wrong. But I would never consider that the "proper" way to hear an album by a long shot. For one the digital signal is only twenty percent of the total amount of signal that the artist intended for you to hear.

 

The main point at third man is this; we would never intentionally put out something that is clipping or distorting

out of carelessness for the sound quality. I mean give us a break, are you kidding?

 

We would never listen to a mastering of an album and say "Yep, it's clipping, but we don't care! Put it out and take their money ha ha ha!"

 

Give us some credit.

 

I've only done one "shoot out" between mastering engineers in my time. It was between Vlado Mueller and Bob Ludwig. for Icky Thump.

 

Ludwig's mastering was so much louder than Vlados' and clipping I couldn't listen to it. It was the only time I ever turned down a project i was working on on my stereo in my life.

 

Vlado Mueller has gotten a reputation for being "Vlad the Impaler" and making everything too loud and clipping. But I strongly disagree. he only doesthat when the ARTIST INSISTS THAT HE DO THAT. And that's the truth. Believe me I've had this discussion a thousand times with engineers.

 

If you listen to the cd of Icky Thump or Sea of Cowards on nice McIntosh amps and b and w speakers and still think its clipping, give us a call.

 

If you listen to those cds in a BMW driving ninety down the Autobahn and think it's too loud, give us a call.

 

If you are listening to those albums on ear buds and tiny computer speakers and think its clipping I don't know what to tell you.

 

I hope this addresses some of your concerns and I hope you understand our stance on sound quality at Third Man better. For more info into the strange maze of death that is sound "quality" read the book

"Perfecting Sound Forever" by Greg Milner. From the Guardian review of the book, this is what is most important in the battle against new technology:

 

"For technology freaks, the book provides a veritable history of gadgetry, from the four-track mixing desk to the advent of Pro Tools, software that allows the recording engineer to, as Milner puts it, "See the sounds as digital waveforms on a computer screen and move them around with the click of a mouse… and try 10 variations of an edit, and decide which one worked best". Pro Tools has made the business of recording much simpler, but, as with all such advances, something has been lost in the process. That something is "presence"; the ghost in the machine that makes recorded music sound almost human."

 

Jack White

III

 

Marah sticks a fork in CD era?

 

When Marah unleashes its seventh studio album, Life Is A Problem, on June 22, it'll be like the compact disc era never happened.

 

The band has confirmed that although Life Is A Problem will be available for purchase on iTunes, it will not be available on CD. That might seem strange, until you consider the formats Marah has chosen to use.

 

-- 180 gram vinyl LP in a gatefold sleeve (with a limited edition pressed on red vinyl, plus free digital download)

 

-- cassette tape. That is not a typo.

 

Keyboardist Christine Smith has long been an advocate for cassettes; she once posed for a promo photo in a bathtub where modesty was provided by piles of anachronistic cassette tapes.

 

 

"We obviously grew up on cassettes and get real happy just thinking about you and your boys out in the garage playing darts and listening to our new record on cassette," the group said in an email message.

 

Life Is A Problem has been in the works for some time. Last August, Smith and band mate Dave Bielanko spoke about the making the record and the fallout from the hobbled release of Marah's sixth album, Angels of Destruction. In recent months, the group has given fans a taste of the eclectic-sounding new album by posting a number of songs on their website. The new record will be issued by the group's new indie label, Valley Farm Songs.

 

"Walmart will not be selling Life is a Problem, neither will Starbucks Coffee Shops… “good”, “who cares?” Walmart is not our place….never was….our place is different, it’s better," said the band in a post on their website.

[Vacant Horizon]

interesting stuff Aman. not sure about cassette tapes. the more i think about cd vs. downloads the more i realize that cds are going nowhere. stuff will probably go out of print quicker, but new stuff will always come out on cd for decades to come. at least until boomers and gen x folk get really really old.

[LouieB]

interesting stuff Aman. not sure about cassette tapes. the more i think about cd vs. downloads the more i realize that cds are going nowhere. stuff will probably go out of print quicker, but new stuff will always come out on cd for decades to come. at least until boomers and gen x folk get really really old.

Agreed. Since most people don't even know new music is coming out on LP it is unlikely that the CD is disappearing any time soon. (I feel like the proverbial broken record...) Sure LPs are selling at record levels now and probably will be for the forseeable future (at least as long as the artists are willing to give away free digital files), but in the long run LPs will also decline.

 

Actually I could use some blank cassettes, anyone know where to buy some??? How many folks here even have a cassette recorder any more?

 

Even today while stopping in at Lauries and buying the new Nels Cline on (gasp) CD, a young woman was asking the clerks where to buy a turntable. She honestly didn't know how to do this. I like it that new albums are coming out on LP and I buy some of them myself (and it is nice for the National to sell LPs along with the CDs), but groups like Marah can't survive on LP sales. (hell they can hardly survive at all as a band.) Only a small proportion of the physical music buying public are going to buy LPs. The news on the hi-fi front is not so great either. Few people buy component systems anymore so getting a system to play LPs on is still an investment in time and energy most folks won't make. We are the few, the proud, the LP buying public. The rest of the world is perfectly happy buying CDs and downloads (click) CDs and downloads (click)CDs and downloads (click) CDs and downloads (click) CDs and downloads......

 

LouieB

[Nobody Girl]

I mostly stick with CDs just because I like to have the physical product. With all of the streaming going on on various sites, I can be pretty sure that I'm not wasting my money buying something I'm going to listen to only once. Plus, amazon.com has some great deals if you pre-order or buy CDs pretty close to the release date (I just bought New Pornographers, The Hold Steady, Free Energy and The National for about $32).

 

But I've been laid off twice over the last year and taken huge pay cuts at my new jobs, so I join eMusic whenever they have an irresistible deal. I realize there's tons of great music I haven't heard, so most of the stuff I download is artists I'm unfamiliar with but have heard good things about. The only time I buy from iTunes is when I want one of those one-hit-wonder-type songs.

[Analogman]

Agreed. Since most people don't even know new music is coming out on LP it is unlikely that the CD is disappearing any time soon. (I feel like the proverbial broken record...) Sure LPs are selling at record levels now and probably will be for the forseeable future (at least as long as the artists are willing to give away free digital files), but in the long run LPs will also decline.

 

Actually I could use some blank cassettes, anyone know where to buy some??? How many folks here even have a cassette recorder any more?

 

LouieB

 

I noticed recently that The Dollar Store still carries cassettes tapes. I have hundreds of them from back in the day.

 

interesting stuff Aman. not sure about cassette tapes. the more i think about cd vs. downloads the more i realize that cds are going nowhere. stuff will probably go out of print quicker, but new stuff will always come out on cd for decades to come. at least until boomers and gen x folk get really really old.

 

I'm not a fan of Jack White's music, but I have a new respect for him after reading that post.

[LouieB]

I still have my cassettes, but all of them are full. Will check out places for new ones.

 

Meahwhile Jack White certainly has integrety, but he is also a multi-millionaire. Many struggling bands will still have to record and mix their albums on computer and then distribute their music via the internet or CD in order to get their product out to potential fans. Some will find the money to press LPs, if only to entice those hip fans who want to buy LPs instead of CDs.

 

Just curious. How many LPs did Wilco sell of W(TA) as opposed to CD? I am going to guess even to LP savvy Wilco fans, they sold tons more CDs. I doubt Nonesuch is going to let Wilco go LP only.

 

LouieB

[Analogman]

I still have my cassettes, but all of them are full. Will check out places for new ones.

 

Meahwhile Jack White certainly has integrety, but he is also a multi-millionaire. Many struggling bands will still have to record and mix their albums on computer and then distribute their music via the internet or CD in order to get their product out to potential fans. Some will find the money to press LPs, if only to entice those hip fans who want to buy LPs instead of CDs.

 

Just curious. How many LPs did Wilco sell of W(TA) as opposed to CD? I am going to guess even to LP savvy Wilco fans, they sold tons more CDs. I doubt Nonesuch is going to let Wilco go LP only.

 

LouieB

 

I am sure you can find blank tapes online somewhere.

 

I think along with that, we are going to see more music being released by way of iTunes only in the future.

 

I am not sure why a band would need a record company to take care of that. Marah must have a small management team, or not enough resources to do it themselves.

[LouieB]

Actually I think they might carry cassettes at Laurie's or more likely they still carry them at Best Buy. I know the guy who fixes my hi-fi stuff has some. I can find one around I am sure.

 

Making actual mix tapes used to be so much fun and so much work. I haven't dont that in years. Anyone who has never done it, should try just once in your life.

 

LouieB

[Sir Stewart]

Making actual mix tapes used to be so much fun and so much work.

Amen.

[Vacant Horizon]

for some reason i get really frustrated that music is so easy to get or hear for free these days. torrents, downloads, pandora, etc. it's overwhelming.

[froggie]

 

(But whose Wilco Book cd didn't break?).

 

 

mine. maybe its a southern hemisphere thing?

 

and just like A-man, i've only listened to it once or twice. i hope it hasnt got trapped in the book!

[Analogman]

mine. maybe its a southern hemisphere thing?

 

and just like A-man, i've only listened to it once or twice. i hope it hasnt got trapped in the book!

 

I think once was enough for me. It may be stuck in there.

[PopTodd]

for some reason i get really frustrated that music is so easy to get or hear for free these days. torrents, downloads, pandora, etc. it's overwhelming.

 

Totally.

But, when I love something, I need to own the physical product. And, even a burned CD isn't enough... I need the original.

(I re-bought a couple of CDs that I had burns of, just because I loved them so much. And, then I gave away the burns to friends that I thought might like them.)

[Vacant Horizon]

Totally.

But, when I love something, I need to own the physical product. And, even a burned CD isn't enough... I need the original.

(I re-bought a couple of CDs that I had burns of, just because I loved them so much. And, then I gave away the burns to friends that I thought might like them.)

 

yeah, i've been going back and forth with physical vs mp3, as this thread documents. however, if i really like and album, the reality is that i want the physical product; lossless audio, case, photos, liner notes. i like the back pictures as much as the inside. also, i'm more apt to give an album a real chance if i invest in the cd. some of my favorite albums turned out that way because i only had money for one cd a month in high school. had to make a good choice and really give it a chance. that was great because it was one cd and me and nothing else. no internet BUZZ about mediocre stuff that is the next Wilco

 

incidently, 3 weeks ago i bought louris and olson's ready for the flood and after a bit of work it has really become one of my all time favorite albums. my process is working!! i'm trying to buy only one or two cds a month. next up is new band of horses and new Drive by truckers. unless things change:)

[The High Heat]

mine. maybe its a southern hemisphere thing?

 

and just like A-man, i've only listened to it once or twice. i hope it hasnt got trapped in the book!

Be careful removing the disc from the book. It's made out of eggshells.

[rogi]

i downloaded way too much new music the past two years and i just didn't know what to listen to anymore and i didn't even really like half the stuff. i guess i got burnt out, and i just completely stopped listening to any new music the past 6 months or so and just rediscovered some of the cds and music i already have from artists like frank zappa, kyuss, sleep, dylan, minutemen, and tom waits.

 

revisiting some of the classics really helped as i'm starting to get into new releases again like the national, black keys, dr. dog, etc. as much as i like the physical product, i just don't have the space to put them, so i really have to be picky. i will still buy cds from artists i absolutely love, like the national, black keys, dr. dog but i'm passing on stuff like the new pornographers, broken social scene, etc.

[kathyp]

I'm actually okay with downloading most of my music these days. I'm more likely now to take a risk than I did ten or fifteen years ago when I was a broke twenty-something grumbling about paying $15 for a cd when I couldn't find it used.

[Vacant Horizon]

i downloaded way too much new music the past two years and i just didn't know what to listen to anymore and i didn't even really like half the stuff. i guess i got burnt out, and i just completely stopped listening to any new music the past 6 months or so and just rediscovered some of the cds and music i already have from artists like frank zappa, kyuss, sleep, dylan, minutemen, and tom waits.

 

revisiting some of the classics really helped as i'm starting to get into new releases again like the national, black keys, dr. dog, etc. as much as i like the physical product, i just don't have the space to put them, so i really have to be picky. i will still buy cds from artists i absolutely love, like the national, black keys, dr. dog but i'm passing on stuff like the new pornographers, broken social scene, etc.

 

i'm with you on all of this...except for Kyuss:)

[Analogman]

Collectible vinyl business has seen record sales due to the recession

 

I have that Who record pictured on the left.

[Vacant Horizon]

Collectible vinyl business has seen record sales due to the recession

 

I have that Who record pictured on the left.

 

cool article. thanks for posting.