Wisconsin is the New Egypt

[jff]

I don't feel attacked, I feel annoyed as shit (I believe that was the term I used?). Just notifying you.

 

Noted.

 

Based on how annoyed you are, I predict you will be a Gilbert Godfried audience member in five years.

[Ghost of Electricity]

It's good to see that VC can generate 2-3 pages of discussion around the use of quotation marks.

see, I just picked up the discussion on page 14, so I missed that. I thought it was just a discussion about nothing.

 

silly me, expecting a comparison of the mid-east and mid-west.

[ih8music]

silly me, expecting a comparison of the mid-east and mid-west.

That's the part I dislike the most about this thread. As important as what's going on in Wisconsin is, it isn't even remotely close to being on par with the revolutions taking place in the Middle East.

[Guest Jules]

That's the part I dislike the most about this thread. As important as what's going on in Wisconsin is, it isn't even remotely close to being on par with the revolutions taking place in the Middle East.

Other than the title of the thread, has anyone compared the two?

[Sparky speaks]

After reading the past three pages of this thread, some of you get upset when I post excerpts of articles?

 

Back to the matter at hand. Here is an excerpt from Michael Moore, who we all have opinions about, both positive and negative. He describes what he has witnessed in Madison and addresses the media's slanted reporting of the real situation on the ground at the state capital...

 

How I Got to Madison, Wisconsin

 

The scene in Madison is nothing like what they are showing you on TV or in the newspaper. First, you notice that the whole town is behind this. Yard signs and signs in store windows are everywhere supporting public workers. There are thousands of people out just randomly lining the streets for the six blocks leading to the Capitol building carrying signs, shouting and cheering and cajoling. Then there are stages and friendly competing demos on all sides of the building (yesterday's total estimate of people was 50,000-70,000, the smallest one yet)! A big semi truck has been sent by James Hoffa of the Teamsters and is parked like a don't-even-think-of-effing-with-us Sherman tank on the street in front of the Capitol. There is a long line - separate from these other demonstrations - of 4,000 people, waiting their turn to get through the only open door to the Capitol so they can join the occupation inside.

 

And inside the Rotunda is ... well, it will bring tears to your eyes if you go there. It's like a shrine to working people - to what America is and should be about - packed with families and kids and so many senior citizens that it made me happy for science and its impact on life expectancy over the past century. There were grandmas and great-grandpas who remember FDR and Wisconsin's La Follette and the long view of this struggle. Standing in that Rotunda was like a religious experience. There had been nothing like it, for me, in decades.

 

And so it was in this setting, out of doors now on the steps of the Capitol, with so many people in front of me that I couldn't see where they ended, that I just "showed up" and gave a speech that felt unlike any other I had ever given. As I had just written it and had no time to memorize it, I read from the pages I brought with me. I wanted to make sure that the words I had chosen were clear and exact. I knew they had the potential to drive the haters into a rabid state (not a pretty sight) but I also feared that the Right's wealthy patrons would see a need to retaliate should these words be met with citizen action across the land. I was, after all, putting them on notice: We are coming after you, we are stopping you and we are going to return the money/jobs/homes you stole from the people. You have gone too far. It's too bad you couldn't have been satisfied with making millions, you had to have billions - and now you want to strip us of our ability to talk and bargain and provide. This is your tipping point, Wall Street; your come-to-Jesus moment, Corporate America. And I'm glad I'm going to be able to be a witness to it.

 

You can find the written version of my speech on my website. Please read it and pass it around far and wide. You can also watch a video of me giving the spoken version from the Capitol steps by clicking here. I will be sending you a second email shortly with just the speech so you can forward a clean version of it without the above story of how I abandoned my family in the middle of the night to go to Wisconsin for the day.

 

I can't express enough the level of admiration I have for the people of Wisconsin who, for three weeks, have braved the brutal winter cold and taken over their state Capitol. All told, literally hundreds of thousands of people have made their way to Madison to make their voices heard. It all began with high school students cutting class and marching on the building (you can read their reports on my High School Newspaper site). Then their parents joined them. Then 14 brave Democratic state senators left the state so the governor wouldn't have his quorum.

 

And all this while the White House was trying to stop this movement (read this)!

 

But it didn't matter. The People's train had left the station. And now protests were springing up in all 50 states.

 

The media has done a poor job covering this (imagine a takeover of the government HQ in any other country, free or totalitarian - our media would be all over it). But this one scares them and their masters - as it should. The organizers told me this morning that my showing up got them more coverage yesterday than they would have had, "a shot in the arm that we needed to keep momentum going." Well, I'm glad I could help. But they need a lot more than just me - and they need you doing similar things in your own states and towns.

 

How 'bout it? I know you know this: This is our moment. Let's seize it. Everyone can do something.

 

Yours,

Michael Moore

 

My link

[Smokestack Joe]

it is going to cost between $300K and $7.5 million to clean up this thread.

[cryptique]

I was only skimming, but did I just see multiple pages of bickering about cleaning up the capitol?

 

Please tell me that was just my imagination.

[jff]

I was only skimming, but did I just see multiple pages of bickering about cleaning up the capitol?

 

Please tell me that was just my imagination.

 

What's wrong with debunking partisan talking points which are precisely on topic?

[Guest Jules]

I was only skimming, but did I just see multiple pages of bickering about cleaning up the capitol?

 

Please tell me that was just my imagination.

my fault there. Bad use of quotation marks.

[Sparky speaks]

Ratigan is one of the few commentators who gets it. The greatest heist in American history...

 

Dylan Ratigan: Today, some new protests in defense of unions and collective bargaining spreading across the Midwest. Workers and labor leaders gathering in Michigan, Ohio and Wisconsin to protest bills that would void union contracts or slash bargaining rights. Keep in mind, this is all about public workers continuing to be asked to pay for Wall Street's crime against their pensions. Filmmaker Michael Moore hit the nail on the head at a rally in Madison:

 

Interjected video clip of Michael Moore speaking at a rally: There has been a massive transfer of wealth of wealth to the rich from the rest of us. It has been the greatest heist in history, from the workers and consumers, to the banks and the portfolios of the uber rich. Those in charge have diverted that wealth into a deep well that sits on their well-guarded estates. They know. They know that they have committed crimes to make this happen.

 

Dylan: This has been the greatest robbery and cover-up in American history and it's been ongoing for years now. The question is, why is no one paying for this crime? And who should pay for it? The people who did it? The rich in general? Or maybe we should just take it out on the teachers and cops, and make them pay for it as the Republicans suggest? Which seems fair to you? Joining us now is Roger Hickey, co-director of the campaign for America's future, a group dedicated to finding long-term solutions to America's jobs crisis. Thursday, they're holding a summit in Washington on this very subject. So, Roger, what do you think is the best way to go about this?

 

Roger Hickey: Well, Michael Moore had it right; the conservatives are telling us that America is broke. But we're not broke: We just gave a massive tax cut to the richest people in America. So we need a jobs movement that will take back some of that money from the very wealthy and invest it in job creation. Washington, D.C. just hasn't got it yet: The number one priority of the American people, as you found on your tour around the country, is jobs. It's not cutting the deficit. It's not cutting education programs, which the Republicans are trying to do now. It's investing in short-term and long-term efforts to get our country fully employed.

 

My link

[Guest Jules]

But we're not broke: We just gave a massive tax cut to the richest people in America. So we need a jobs movement that will take back some of that money from the very wealthy and invest it in job creation.

 

When did the massive tax cut happen?

 

Also, the wealthy are the one's who create jobs. Let them keep more of their own money = more jobs.

[ih8music]

Also, the wealthy are the one's who create jobs. Let them keep more of their own money = more jobs.

Rich people don't create jobs; economic demand creates jobs. Business only add new people if demand for their product/service increases beyond their current capacity. Aside from their personal staff (housekeepers, etc.) rich people don't create jobs at all.

 

And let's not forget that businesses aren't there for charity; they exist first and foremost to create profit for their investors. Labor is an expense that eats away at profit -- businesses are often more concerned with removing jobs under the edict of "cutting costs" in the form of workforce reduction, outsourcing, automation, etc.

 

So back to tax cuts for the wealthy -- does it increase demand? Yes. But is it a dollar-for-dollar increase, or at least comparable to other forms of economic stimulus? Not according to the CBO:

 

The CBO also looked at the stimulative effect of various parts of the stimulus package. It found that purchases of goods and services by the federal government--such as for public works--had the largest bang for the buck, raising GDP by $2.50 for each $1 spent. Transfer payments had a lesser impact, but were still significantly more stimulative than tax cuts. Moreover, tax cuts of the sort favored by Republicans have the least impact. According to the CBO, tax cuts for low-income individuals raise GDP by as much as $1.70 for every $1 of revenue loss, while those for the rich and for corporations raised GDP by at most 50 cents for every $1 of revenue loss.

quote from: http://www.forbes.co...e-bartlett.html

CBO report: http://www.cbo.gov/f.../11-30-ARRA.pdf

[Smokestack Joe]

Ok im about to watch Oscar-winning documentary Inside Job, i have plenty of beers ready to go to help curb my anger on the subject.

[Sparky speaks]

Ok im about to watch Oscar-winning documentary Inside Job, i have plenty of beers ready to go to help curb my anger on the subject.

 

You'll need them. I posted a direct link to this movie a few pages back in this thread. Every American should watch it to see how we have been royally f**ked by all those global elite pigs portrayed in the film. If you don't understand the economic reasons for the collapse we are in the midst of, this film explains it as simply as it can be explained for the economically challenged. You'll understand why Elliot Spitzer was destroyed despite the fact they all do what he did. It is a sad commentary on the state of affairs in America today. You won't be voting Obama in 2012 after you watch it, if you ever decide to vote again. As one of the talking heads in the film states, "It's a Wall Street government."

[Smokestack Joe]

just finished. yes Sparky, not enough beers to deal with it..... i agree with your statement "should watch it to see how we have been royally f**ked by all those global elite pigs portrayed in the film"

 

what a f*cked up place we live in.

 

Obama is no different than the previous. It IS a Wall Street government since those people who created the financial collapse are still in power today.

[KevinG]

 

Also, the wealthy are the one's who create jobs. Let them keep more of their own money = more jobs.

 

With record profits and the US receiving near lows in tax revenues from corporations, those rich corporations are sure doing a bang up job hiring more people.

 

Those three links show the corporations are keeping there own money and not producing jobs.

 

Please explain the logic. Do corporations need more record profits? Furthermore, I took a benefit cut and a pay freeze the last two years and now that my company has post tremendous profits this past year, did I get a bonus, or my benefits back, or even an increase. No I did not.

 

 

 

[Moss]

Hasn't trickle down economics been debunked by now?

 

[Guest Jules]

 

Please explain the logic. Do corporations need more record profits?

 

 

Yes that is the whole point of any business.

[bleedorange]

Yes that is the whole point of any business.

 

[KevinG]

Yes that is the whole point of any business.

 

The reason the whole budget bill mess started in the first place was the unwillingness of the WI governor to make the tough choices and raise taxes (rather he cut taxes for corporations) on those that could afford it. Instead he is targeting the groups that did not vote for him, Unions and the Poor. Instead gov Walker sees himself as the idealized version of Reagan, which he is not.

 

Record profits are not putting people back to work, the tax cuts are not putting people back to work.

 

Then, tell me if a corporation has record profits where is that money going? It is staying in the hands of stockholders and CEO's. Because they ain't hiring, they ain't putting that money back in the community, and they ain't giving back to their workers.

 

I would all be for business making as much money as they can, if they where hiring or paying their fair share. They simply are not.

 

Now please tell me how increasing the taxes of 300K people in WI by 7-10%* is better then increasing the tax rate on corporations and those making over 250K.

 

*the budget repair bill is actually reducing a person's salary to balance the budget, or giving the government their money. Sounds like a tax increase to me.

 

 

[Guest Jules]

Record profits are not putting people back to work, the tax cuts are not putting people back to work.

 

Then, tell me if a corporation has record profits where is that money going? It is staying in the hands of stockholders and CEO's. Because they ain't hiring, they ain't putting that money back in the community, and they ain't giving back to their workers.

 

I would all be for business making as much money as they can, if they where hiring or paying their fair share. They simply are not.

 

Business isn't charity. Business don't hire for the fun of hiring or simply because they made profits. That doesn't make any sense.

 

As far as manufacturing industries go, forecasts for 2011 are very strong and getting stronger. People are being hired by the thousands. Look around.

[KevinG]

Business isn't charity. Business don't hire for the fun of hiring or simply because they made profits. That doesn't make any sense.

 

As far as manufacturing industries go, forecasts for 2011 are very strong and getting stronger. People are being hired by the thousands. Look around.

 

The basic tenant of your argument is that is corporations keep more of their own money it equals more jobs. But this is not happening in this economy.

 

I am not saying business are charity, but they have been given tax cuts and the like to create jobs. So if they are not going to create jobs why give them tax cuts?

 

If the manufacturing forecasts are looking so good, why would they need tax breaks and incentives? Why aren't they hiring? They should have more then enough money to accommodate that. They have record profits they should put those back in their businesses. They are not. The corporations are looking for and receiving handouts, and Governors like Walker are using the middle class to pay for it.

 

I ask again, why is a tax increase of 7-10% on 300K people in Wisconsin better then a tax raise on corporations?

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest Jules]

I don't know. All those questions are giving me a headache.

[KevinG]

I don't know. All those questions are giving me a headache.

 

Glad you have something to contribute to the discussion. And glad your opinion was so well thought out that you could defend it.

 

On to a better subject. What are people's thoughts on how the "Budget Repair Bill" which wasn't actually budgetary finally passed?

[Doug C]

It was a poor way to pass the bill. Though I am proud of the 14 Democratic senators, the thousands of protestors and lone dissenting vote, Rep. Senator Dale ""I voted my conscience, which I feel reflects the core beliefs of the majority of voters who sent me here to represent them" Schultz, the fault is ultimately that of the Wisconsin voters. Walker won. I blame the unregistered voters now upset with the Walker's agenda. I blame the small number of Republican voters that weren't paying attention and are now angry. I blame the Democratic and Independent voters that stayed home. They are collectively the ones at fault. It is a hell of alot easier to keep a train from building up a head of steam than it is to stop it once it is barreling down the track.

 

My state is similar. It isn't as though Scott and the Republican-controlled legislature's plans were a secret. He only won by 1.3 percentage points. That is a narrow victory. I am angry with the bills but I am angrier knowing that if only a few more equally upset people had gotten up off of their duffs, Sink would be the governor and act as a counterweight to the legislature. The problem is lazy, disinterested fools complaining after the fact. Only an idiot would be upset that the victors fulfill their promises.