General Political Thread

[John Smith]

I was in the service on 1982 and my unit got a warning order right after the marine barracks bombing. The order was rescinded within a week or so , I have no idea why. But very shortly after Beirut we invaded Grenada and public attention was diverted. If I remember correctly there was little public anger directed at the administration, not at all like the current faux anger. Nope almost all of the anger was directed at the Palestinians and. The only fall out was with how the marines and military In general handled security. Concrete barriers were erected around the White House and Ronnie suffered zero fallout. Nothing like what is happening with Benghazi occurred back then , Nothing. Obama would have been In prison if that had happened on his watch.

[Guest Jules]

The ACA thing is really taking shape!

[KevinG]

The ACA thing is really taking shape!

 

Yep the whole thing has been such an f'ing disaster.  Guess the only option left is single payer.  

[Guest Jules]

no thanks.

[Hixter]

no thanks.

What he said. The government has spent hundreds of millions of dollars to force Americans to buy insurance and they can't even get that right. Let's not put them in charge of everything.

[KevinG]

What he said. The government has spent hundreds of millions of dollars to force Americans to buy insurance and they can't even get that right. Let's not put them in charge of everything.

 

So let's have the free market sort it out.  If you can't afford health insurance, hey go to the ER and get charged even more.  Still can't pay?  Oh hey that is ok, insurance companies will just raise the rates on everyone who can pay.  Those who can pay will pay for those who cannot.  This is the system we have (or at least ACA), this is the free market acting as socialism.  It is like me going into a grocery store and telling them I can't afford food, so they rise the prices for everyone else.  

 

What ACA does it has everyone pay into the system to lower the cost for everyone.  

 

I agree that the early ACA have been rough but it has been only two months, it will be corrected, it will work.  But so it is a little rough, we need to throw everything out and go back?  Or let's go to the GOP's solution, which is....?  

 

And I am sick of this whining about oh the government is making me buy health insurance or a product I don't want, boo freaking hoo.  Get over yourself and your libertarian false outrage.  The government is not putting a gun to your head or gonna throw you in prison if you don't buy health insurance, it is a tax and a small one at that.  Also the government "forces" you to buy products all the time, except you don't have a choice in what they are.  They are things like roads, police, fire, etc.  You pay for them with your taxes.  If you don't pay for them you will be thrown in jail.  With the Healthcare law you have a lot more choices.  

 

 

[Doug C]

Medicare for all is the only way to go. Simply expand Medicare. If you don't like it, no problem. Feel free to pay privately.

[John Smith]

What he said. The government has spent hundreds of millions of dollars to force Americans to buy insurance and they can't even get that right. Let's not put them in charge of everything.

Imagine how it would have turned out if the republicans had cooperated? They participated because it is their idea, Paul Ryan said they wrote a major chunk of the law, yet they wanted nothing to do with it. See states like MN and KY where implementation was a thusly put forth and they are succeeding. Oh we'll at this point we can only imagine what might have been.

 

 

On an unrelated issue, anyone from GA here? How do you feel about the braves move? I think it's bull shit. Not that they are moving, but that they are expecting the tax payers to foot the bill for their stadium. That's wrong wrong wrong in my book.

[Hixter]

What ACA does it has everyone pay into the system to lower the cost for everyone.  

The president tried to claim that that would be the case, but it's now clear that it's untrue. The whole ball of wax was sold on lies that the president knew were lies and now he's squirming -- good thing he has the New York Times to tell Americans that he made 'incorrect promises' rather than told lies.

 

Middle and upper-class Americans are going to pay more for inferior coverage. It's inevitable. It's the only way to pay for the subsidies.

 

The government is not putting a gun to your head or gonna throw you in prison if you don't buy health insurance, it is a tax

Ever see what the IRS does to people who don't pay their taxes?

 

Also the government "forces" you to buy products all the time, except you don't have a choice in what they are.  They are things like roads, police, fire, etc.

Those things aren't (or shouldn't) be owned by for-profit companies like insurance providers are.

 

On an unrelated issue, anyone from GA here? How do you feel about the braves move? I think it's bull shit. Not that they are moving, but that they are expecting the tax payers to foot the bill for their stadium. That's wrong wrong wrong in my book.

I haven't lived in Georgia since 1987, but I feel that taxpayers should never foot the bill for professional sporting stadiums unless they also own the team and therefore can lock them into staying put. It's an eternal cycle: city pays for new stadium and team signs contract to stay for a decade or two, then when the contract is ready to expire the team demands a new stadium or threatens to move. 

[John Smith]

Im a White Sox and Bears fan and would not have lost one minute of sleep had either team left, but the powers that be decided to give them both a ton of money. The government does not build or pay for physical facilities for companies yet sports teams seem to get what they want.

[Hixter]

The government does not build or pay for physical facilities for companies yet sports teams seem to get what they want.

If a company like Apple wants to build a billion-dollar facility in town, the local government will bend over backwards and offer free/cheap land, modified zoning and/or extremely generous tax breaks. (And then the company will avoid taxes by hoarding its money offshore.)

[Atticus]

if we as a society are wiling to pay a smelly 20something $20 million to throw a baseball we shouldn't be that shocked that our governments bend over and supply the lube when it comes to stadiums and megadomes.

[Hixter]

if we as a society are wiling to pay a smelly 20something $20 million to throw a baseball

It's not as if the average citizen has a choice, since most of that money comes from advertising. I haven't seen a commercial in years, but money is still taken from my pocket when I buy a carton of orange juice or make a phone call.

[Atticus]

the "average citizen"'s vote doesn't count for shit either.  but when enough average citizens agree not to support something, the market responds (I wish I could say the government does the same thing, but clearly it doesn't).  We don't pay dart-throwers $20 million a year.  

[John Smith]

if we as a society are wiling to pay a smelly 20something $20 million to throw a baseball we shouldn't be that shocked that our governments bend over and supply the lube when it comes to stadiums and megadomes.

The jesters and gladiators are now amongst the highest paid in society.

[KevinG]

Imagine how it would have turned out if the republicans had cooperated? They participated because it is their idea, Paul Ryan said they wrote a major chunk of the law, yet they wanted nothing to do with it. See states like MN and KY where implementation was a thusly put forth and they are succeeding. Oh we'll at this point we can only imagine what might have been.

 

The GOP on this issue reminds me of the school yard bully, who trips the nerd and then asks why they are so clumsy.  

 

ACA has had some deep roll out problems and the media has focused on them, the "you can keep you healthcare plan period" line was unfortunate and one PBO would probably like back.  But really it is far more nuanced than that.  But hey let's all go by the media's assessment of the situation.  I urge you to read the following article http://thedailybanter.com/2013/11/another-obamacare-horror-story-debunked-and-no-the-president-didnt-lie-about-the-law/.  Which really does go about explaining the issue beyond the sound bites.  

 

A couple of things also strike me as peculiar in this whole debate.  It seems that many on the right are declaring some sort of victory on ACA.  It is like calling a game after the first quarter.  There is a lot more to go and a lot more to happen.  Also in all this debate the has been no offers for a solution or a GOP plan.  I really wonder if there is anything out there as a cogent GOP plan to fix our healthcare.  

 

Which brings it back full circle to John Smith's comments, imagine if both sides worked together.  What kind of solution that could have happened.   

[Mr. Heartbreak]

...really it is far more nuanced than that.  But hey let's all go by the media's assessment of the situation 

I really can't wait to hear all these GOP a-holes go back to carping about the so-called "liberal media," when we have heard nothing for the past two weeks but Obama getting hammered about the ACA rollout problems, the website, and now his apology. I guess the media are liberal when they aren't all about espousing conservative values, but then when they bash a Democrat, they are being "objective" for a change. Disgusting.

 

What truly blows my mind is the reaction to people being dropped by their insurance companies: rather than blame this despicable behavior by the companies, it goes straight to "Obama lied." Couldn't they have at least offered people an alternate plan, instead of unceremoniously dropping their paying customers? But they get a total pass. It's happened to me - Allstate dropped me on car insurance for no good reason, without so much as a by-your-leave, and hey, fuck them. Since that time, I tell everyone I know, "Don't ever trust Allstate."

[Hixter]

What truly blows my mind is the reaction to people being dropped by their insurance companies: rather than blame this despicable behavior by the companies, it goes straight to "Obama lied." 

They were dropped because the law required the insurance companies to do so -- the plans were no longer legal. Many were, or will be, offered alternate plans that comply with the law, but they may be more expensive.

 

People aren't angry at the insurance companies because the president promised them very clearly that they wouldn't have to change a thing if they didn't want to, even though he knew he was lying every time he said so.

[Atticus]

[Mr. Heartbreak]

They were dropped because the law required the insurance companies to do so -- the plans were no longer legal. Many were, or will be, offered alternate plans that comply with the law, but they may be more expensive.

 

People aren't angry at the insurance companies because the president promised them very clearly that they wouldn't have to change a thing if they didn't want to, even though he knew he was lying every time he said so.

The President lost his own mother to cancer, largely as a result of the typical denial of coverage that these faceless corporations love as their default. If he has a hard-on for them, it's surely no surprise. But if you think that those companies had no choice but to send out cancellation notices, you are kidding yourself. Every single one of those companies made a choice, and that was to drop people rather than simply informing them, "Your current policy will be considered substandard under the ACA; therefore, if you wish to continue to be insured by us, you will need to purchase additional coverage."

[KevinG]

They were dropped because the law required the insurance companies to do so -- the plans were no longer legal. Many were, or will be, offered alternate plans that comply with the law, but they may be more expensive.

 

People aren't angry at the insurance companies because the president promised them very clearly that they wouldn't have to change a thing if they didn't want to, even though he knew he was lying every time he said so.

Did you happen to read my above mentioned article by chance?

[IRememberDBoon]

"The president tried to claim that that would be the case, but it's now clear that it's untrue."

Says who?

 

[IRememberDBoon]

"People aren't angry at the insurance companies because the president promised them very clearly that they wouldn't have to change a thing if they didn't want to, even though he knew he was lying every time he said so."
 

This proves youre nothing but a right wing sounding board.

The right is being so disingenuous on this is its sickening. YET ANOTHER gotcha game with absolutely NO plan of their own. But hey what its what they do.


oh and Hix Whats the right wing line on that clown that was on 60 minutes re: Benghazi??? Talk about a liar!





 

[Hixter]

Every single one of those companies made a choice, and that was to drop people rather than simply informing them, "Your current policy will be considered substandard under the ACA; therefore, if you wish to continue to be insured by us, you will need to purchase additional coverage."

I don't think you understand what is happening here. People aren't being dropped yet, they are being warned that their current policy will cease to exist as of the date that the law goes into effect. And the letters do offer alternate coverage -- it's a business and they'd be stupid to not offer coverage to current customers. You can read the letters yourself here.

 

"The president tried to claim that that would be the case, but it's now clear that it's untrue."

 

Says who?

Says the administration:

"People aren't angry at the insurance companies because the president promised them very clearly that they wouldn't have to change a thing if they didn't want to, even though he knew he was lying every time he said so."

 

This proves youre nothing but a right wing sounding board.

The president's public apology the other day says otherwise.

[KevinG]

I don't think you understand what is happening here. People aren't being dropped yet, they are being warned that their current policy will cease to exist as of the date that the law goes into effect. And the letters do offer alternate coverage -- it's a business and they'd be stupid to not offer coverage to current customers. You can read the letters yourself here.

 

Says the administration:

The president's public apology the other day says otherwise.

 

I really wonder, and I have mentioned this before, what the real cost of these new health plans are, and if in the long run they are actually more expensive.  To my knowledge there has been no critical analysis of plans, coverage, deductibles, etc.  For example say a current "junk" plan is less than an ACA market plan.  But your junk plan has a high deductible, lifetime limits, etc, in the long run it could be cheaper.

 

The letters from the insurance companies do offer new plans, but it not like the consumer has to take these plans.  It really behooves them to shop around the ACA Marketplace to compare plans.  I really wish someone in the media would take this up, but that is hard to do in a soundbite, which as IRDB pointed out you seem to be just using as a sounding board.  The whole thing is far more complicated and nuanced, but if you want to talk in soundbites and forego critical thought, that is fine.

 

As to the president's apology.  Is it not refreshing to see a president actually own up to his mistakes?  And try to work to solve them?  

 

Also it is so funny that the GOP is now concerned with the 8 million people who are affected by the ending of their "junk" plans, but really not concerned at all with the 50 million people who don't have insurance.  

 

Also, I do want to mention, that the current ACA discussion clear points out that the liberal media meme is false.  Cause if it where true they would be doing a lot more to help the Administration.  It really proves the media is shallow and incapable of the critical thought we need.