General Political Thread

[KevinG]

We should have bombed their asses a long time ago.  Not really sure why chemical weapons were the "red line".  What about the red line for killing thousands of innocent civilians over the last two years?  Not red enough I guess.. That line must just have a pinkish hue.. 

 

to paraphrase Colbert, if we cared about killing people with conventional weapons we would have done something about Chicago.  

 

Other countries kill innocent civilians all the time.  Yet there is little we do or even hear about.  If your sole reason for bombing their asses is killing civilians we would have to bomb most of Africa and half of Asia.  

[Guest Jules]

not those kind of people.

[IRememberDBoon]

I'm sure it was the worst day of Zimmerman's life, but I wouldn't consider it a mistake to shoot someone who was smashing my face in. The jury agreed.

 

Stalling tactic to make the United States look weak and wobbly; Putin played it perfectly. John Kerry's assurance that any strike would be "unbelievably small" should result in his resignation -- especially when taken with his off-the-cuff remark that gave Putin and Assad an out. If this is the "smart diplomacy" that the Obama campaign promised, then I think they need to look up the meaning of the word "smart."

PFFFT yeah The Secretary of State should resign now! And people say im a crazy azzhole on here.

 

I thought about this post today when I saw this political cartoon:

HAHAHA perfect intersection!

[Hixter]

PFFFT yeah The Secretary of State should resign now!

He's made himself -- and therefore the nation -- look incredibly weak, ineffective and unprepared on the world stage. Somewhere, Hillary is smiling.

[lamradio]

to paraphrase Colbert, if we cared about killing people with conventional weapons we would have done something about Chicago.  

 

Other countries kill innocent civilians all the time.  Yet there is little we do or even hear about.  If your sole reason for bombing their asses is killing civilians we would have to bomb most of Africa and half of Asia.  

 

Yeah but why are the chemical weapons the red line?  If we were going to help those people, we should have done it a long time ago.  I wish we could help everyone that is helpless, but we can only do so much.  

[Good Old Neon]

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/09/12/2611711/george-zimmermans-local-police-chief-fears-sandy-hook-waiting-happen/

 

Excerpt:
 

Police Chief Steve Bracknell, who is responsible for the Florida town where George Zimmerman resides, agreed in a series of emails that Zimmerman is a “ticking time bomb” and another “Sandy Hook” waiting to happen.

 

Bracknell expressed his views in response to two emails from Santiago Rodriguez, who reached Bracknell through a contact form on the police department’s website. Bracknell confirmed the emails’ authenticity to ThinkProgress and subsequently tried to distance himself from the remarks.

 

Rodriguez’s first email was an extended, and sometimes angry, critique of how the Lake Mary Police Department handled their response to the recent altercation between George Zimmerman, his wife and his father in law. Rodriguez told Bracknell that he had a responsibility to charge Zimmerman because he was another “Sandy Hook… waiting to happen.” Bracknell responded with a detailed defense of the police department’s conduct, but explicitly endorsed Rodriguez’s comments on Sandy Hook.

[LouieB]

Nah he will be okay. He's just some poor innocent guy who happened to be getting his head bashed in by a crazed teenager and had to shoot him. Won't happen again.

 

LouieB

[Winston Legthigh]

He's made himself -- and therefore the nation -- look incredibly weak, ineffective and unprepared on the world stage. Somewhere, Hillary is smiling.

Even if this is accurate - that whatever he did makes the nation look incredibly weak, ineffective and unprepared on the world stage, what effect does that have? Should we kill a few more 100,000 people to inflate our image?

[Hixter]

Should we kill a few more 100,000 people to inflate our image?

The time to do something was 2 years ago. An "incredibly small" military response at this point would be a waste of time and money.

 

For what it's worth, we haven't killed hundreds of thousands of people in our conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan. You'll find that deaths at the hands of coalition forces are dwarfed by those killed in sectarian fighting.

[Winston Legthigh]

Fine, but what's the effect of looking "incredibly weak, ineffective and unprepared on the world stage"?

[Good Old Neon]

The time to do something was 2 years ago. An "incredibly small" military response at this point would be a waste of time and money.

 

For what it's worth, we haven't killed hundreds of thousands of people in our conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan. You'll find that deaths at the hands of coalition forces are dwarfed by those killed in sectarian fighting.

That depends on who you ask. Some organizations put it in the hundreds of thousands - our own government figures are much lower, but then, we don't really try too hard to keep an accurate count. There's also a fairly large gray area where sectarian violence is concerned, as, once you invade and occupy a country, you assume responsibility for security.

 

 

"U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell was quoted in "Plan of Attack" as cautioning President George Bush before the war that he would "own" Iraq and all its problems, after military victory. "Privately," wrote Bob Woodward, "Powell and Armitage called this the Pottery Barn rule: You break it, you own it."

 

Source - http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/17/arts/17iht-saf18.html?_r=0

[Hixter]

Fine, but what's the effect of looking "incredibly weak, ineffective and unprepared on the world stage"?

In a nutshell, loss of respect by most of the world, loss of confidence by our allies and an increased sense of confidence by our adversaries. It will have actual, real-world consequences in the long term.

 

CNN is currently running a big headline that says 'Putin Scores Diplomatic Win' along with a smirking photo of the Russian leader. Putin and the leaders of Syria, Iran and North Korea are high-fiving while the leaders of Japan and Australia are running the numbers to see whether it would be cheaper to cozy up to China rather than build out their own military now that they have less confidence in the United States.

[Winston Legthigh]

It will have actual, real-world consequences in the long term.

 

such as?

[KevinG]

In a nutshell, loss of respect by most of the world, loss of confidence by our allies and an increased sense of confidence by our adversaries. It will have actual, real-world consequences in the long term.

 

CNN is currently running a big headline that says 'Putin Scores Diplomatic Win' along with a smirking photo of the Russian leader. Putin and the leaders of Syria, Iran and North Korea are high-fiving while the leaders of Japan and Australia are running the numbers to see whether it would be cheaper to cozy up to China rather than build out their own military now that they have less confidence in the United States.

 

But again, what does that matter?  Maybe it is a good thing.  Maybe every time there is some little skirmish half way around the world we won't have to use our money and our solider's lives to stop it.  Maybe it is time we stopped being the policemen of the world and become the neighbors and maybe the rest of the countries will realize we are in the shit all together and the US is not there to always help.  

[KevinG]

In a nutshell, loss of respect by most of the world, loss of confidence by our allies and an increased sense of confidence by our adversaries. 

 

I don't like to double post but I had another thought on this statement in particular.  So are you afraid of an attack by another country or another terrorist group or what is the point here?  Terrorist groups are going to plan an attack on us no matter how we strong or weak we look in our foreign policy.  It only matters how strong we are at home to stop and defend it.  Bombing or lack of bombing Syria has nothing to do with that.

 

Who cares what other countries think?  F them all, we got our own shit to deal with here.  

[Good Old Neon]

In a nutshell, loss of respect by most of the world, loss of confidence by our allies and an increased sense of confidence by our adversaries. It will have actual, real-world consequences in the long term.

 

 

The world's opinion of the US (which, has always been low) took a nosedive following our adventure in Iraq, Guantanamo, the use of torture - etc. Our reputation was in the shitter long before Syria became an issue. 

[Winston Legthigh]

Still not sure why any of this would make us look weak (regardless if that even has any tangible meaning).

 

This is what happened: We threatened military action, and now Russia and Syria are scrambling to negotiate their way out of this mess. Seems like our threat is working. If we appeared weak, why would they react in such a way to our threat? How is it possible that this is getting spinned the other way?

[Mr. Heartbreak]

The world's opinion of the US (which, has always been low) took a nosedive following our adventure in Iraq, Guantanamo, the use of torture - etc. Our reputation was in the shitter long before Syria became an issue. 

This is exactly correct except for one thing: the world's opinion of the U.S. hasn't always been low. It was probably still pretty high until around the early 90s, when our first misadventure in Iraq began. It sure as hell took a huge nosedive during George W. Bush's first term, what with "Bring 'em on," and "If you're not with us, you're against us."

[Atticus]

Who cares what other countries think?  F them all, we got our own shit to deal with here.  

 

seriously?

[KevinG]

seriously?

 

Yep.  Really why do we have to be the policemen of the world?  All it does is waste our resources and make people pissed off at us.  

[bjorn_skurj]

That's 5 minutes of my like that I'll never get back.

I'm sorry man, but if you didn't think any of that was funny, then your sense of humor needs a look-see by a certified professional.

[Atticus]

Yep.  Really why do we have to be the policemen of the world?  All it does is waste our resources and make people pissed off at us.  

 

caring what other countries think ≠ being the policemen of the world

[Hixter]

such as?

I'm unable to see the future, but you can rest assured that our allies are nervous and our adversaries are emboldened. It wouldn't surprise me to see Iran and/or North Korea test the waters in the near future. I would mention China, too, but they've already been doing plenty of water-testing off of Japan in recent months.

 

Maybe every time there is some little skirmish half way around the world we won't have to use our money and our solider's lives to stop it.  Maybe it is time we stopped being the policemen of the world and become the neighbors and maybe the rest of the countries will realize we are in the shit all together and the US is not there to always help.  

I think you'll find the the U.S. intervenes militarily in only the tiniest fraction of skirmishes around the world. Like it or not, we're in a unique position of being able to project military might across the planet and much of the world expects us to do so. Some parts of the world -- such as the middle east -- are too important to ignore. And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that there are nations out there who would immediately fill the vacuum left by a U.S. contraction and the result wouldn't be pretty. We have allies in those regions and we need to live up to our promises to defend them.

 

Who cares what other countries think?  F them all, we got our own shit to deal with here.  

That's not how international relations work (thank God.); think of it as a chess match. That reminds me of something I read the other day: Obama and Kerry are fumbling through a game of checkers while Putin is playing three-dimensional chess. Heh.

 

The world's opinion of the US (which, has always been low) took a nosedive following our adventure in Iraq, Guantanamo, the use of torture - etc. Our reputation was in the shitter long before Syria became an issue. 

And it's gotten even worse over the last few months and years. Our favorable rating in Germany is now the same as in Russia. We should not be scaring our allies away.

 

This is what happened: We threatened military action, and now Russia and Syria are scrambling to negotiate their way out of this mess. Seems like our threat is working.

They are not scrambling to negotiate, they are thumbing their noses at us. Syria proudly boasts that they aren't buckling under pressure, but rather following the Russians' lead. We look foolish on the world stage. Any diplomat whose name isn't 'Kerry' would agree.

I'm sorry man, but if you didn't think any of that was funny, then your sense of humor needs a look-see by a certified professional.

I'm not a fan of political comedy ... if that's what it was.

[Good Old Neon]

I'm unable to see the future, but you can rest assured that our allies are nervous and our adversaries are emboldened. It wouldn't surprise me to see Iran and/or North Korea test the waters in the near future. I would mention China, too, but they've already been doing plenty of water-testing off of Japan in recent months.

 

I think you'll find the the U.S. intervenes militarily in only the tiniest fraction of skirmishes around the world. Like it or not, we're in a unique position of being able to project military might across the planet and much of the world expects us to do so. Some parts of the world -- such as the middle east -- are too important to ignore. And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that there are nations out there who would immediately fill the vacuum left by a U.S. contraction and the result wouldn't be pretty. We have allies in those regions and we need to live up to our promises to defend them.

 

That's not how international relations work (thank God.); think of it as a chess match. That reminds me of something I read the other day: Obama and Kerry are fumbling through a game of checkers while Putin is playing three-dimensional chess. Heh.

 

And it's gotten even worse over the last few months and years. Our favorable rating in Germany is now the same as in Russia. We should not be scaring our allies away.

 

They are not scrambling to negotiate, they are thumbing their noses at us. Syria proudly boasts that they aren't buckling under pressure, but rather following the Russians' lead. We look foolish on the world stage. Any diplomat whose name isn't 'Kerry' would agree.

I'm not a fan of political comedy ... if that's what it was.

It's almost funny the way you portray the US as some sort of victim here. We've pretty much bullied our way through the previous and current century, yet at the same time, we're weak and afraid to act unilaterally - our reputation and the resulting fallout be damned. The decision to bomb or not to bomb Syria has already been made, the rest is political theater.

[Hixter]

It's almost funny the way you portray the US as some sort of victim here.

I've reread what I wrote 3 times and I can't understand how/why you'd say that.