thejokeexplained Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 So I'm watching the coverage on one of the news channels and someone in paris security was being interviewed, and his take on the attacks was it was a test for future attacks in the West. With the Bataclan having the most casualties it's reasonable to assume that this might be repeated at more small to mid sized venues throughout europe and the US? Not that it will ever keep me from going to gigs but this attack really hit home for me. I have seen the band EODM perform in a similar sized venue as the Bataclan. I could relate to this audience in that regard. There is no way to stop a attack like this no matter ISIS or some nut job here in the USA. If terror shows up with explosive vests and automatic weapons i guess that's just shitty luck. This can't be the beginning of the end to Rockin' in the Free World. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eternal Instigator Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Not that it will ever keep me from going to gigs but this attack really hit home for me.There's a "Paris" thread that's talking about this same theme. What's sad is that, at a time when the people of Paris could use something like live music to take their minds off the tragedy for just a few hours, bands are cancelling their shows over there left and right. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thejokeexplained Posted November 16, 2015 Author Share Posted November 16, 2015 There's a "Paris" thread that's talking about this same theme. What's sad is that, at a time when the people of Paris could use something like live music to take their minds off the tragedy for just a few hours, bands are cancelling their shows over there left and right. Sorry to take up space, i just figured a more detailed subject line was due for this topic in case others had the same concern. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eternal Instigator Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Sorry to take up space, i just figured a more detailed subject line was due for this topic in case others had the same concern. No - don't apologize! It's scary as hell and it sucks that something like this will be in the back of everyone's minds when they go to a show instead of simply on the music where it should be. My husband and I went to "Spectre" this weekend and I found myself thinking about the Colorado movie theater shooting when we sat down. It usually only happens when I see an action flick now, but it's still there. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hixter Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Terrorists looking to maximize body counts will always be able to find a soft target. The list is long: churches, schools, airports (pre-security checkpoint), public transit, etc. Metal detectors wouldn't stop an attack like we saw in Paris; the only thing that would be of any use would be large numbers of heavily armed police officers and that's too expensive for most venues. And now is a good time to remember that Edward Snowden's disclosures have made it much more difficult for intelligence agencies to prevent coordinated attacks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KevinG Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 And now is a good time to remember that Edward Snowden's disclosures have made it much more difficult for intelligence agencies to prevent coordinated attacks. Show your work. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hixter Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Show your work. “There’s no doubt that the disclosures overall created a situation in which we lost coverage of terrorists,” Olsen said at a Yahoo News sponsored conference, Digital Democracy, this week, on the day before the Paris attacks. “Specifically, we saw people that we were targeting with NSA surveillance stop using communications at all. We saw them go to different service providers. We saw them go to uses of encryption — different ways they were reacting to what they were seeing. It shouldn’t be any surprise — these guys are sophisticated . ... They’re reading the newspapers and seeing what we can do.” In the months after the Snowden disclosures, U.S. officials tell Yahoo News, some terror suspects — including those associated with IS in Iraq and Syria — were even overheard by U.S. intelligence making comments along the lines of “let’s not use that anymore,” one former official said. The terror suspects also increasingly began avoiding U.S. Internet providers, such as Google and Yahoo, and switching instead to foreign Internet providers, such as those in Russia.http://news.yahoo.com/paris-attacks-show-u-s--surveillance-of-islamic-state-may-be--going-dark-203103709.html Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eternal Instigator Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Terrorists looking to maximize body counts will always be able to find a soft target. The list is long: churches, schools, airports (pre-security checkpoint), public transit, etc. Metal detectors wouldn't stop an attack like we saw in Paris; the only thing that would be of any use would be large numbers of heavily armed police officers and that's too expensive for most venues. Thank you for not going the "if everyone in the theater had been armed..." route like I've seen elsewhere. I don't know about anyone else, but when I picture that added to the chaos of terrorists squeezing off rounds from their automatic rifles, I see far more people wounded or killed in the crossfire. I wonder what the impact will be on shopping malls over the holiday season? They honestly couldn't have timed this better to not only spread fear but to potentially impact the economy - so many retailers rely on December sales to keep them in the black. Regardless of what one thinks of America's affinity for overindulgence, especially this time of year, the retail industry supports a ton of jobs and a fear of crowds could really damage those smaller businesses that don't have an online presence. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hixter Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 I wonder what the impact will be on shopping malls over the holiday season?It wouldn't be the first time that a mall was targeted by a coordinated attack. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westgate_shopping_mall_attack Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hixter Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 When I heard that the siege at Le Bataclan had lasted hours, I knew that cops were using the wrong tactics. Islamist terrorists wearing suicide vests can't be negotiated with, as all they want to do is kill as many people as possible before achieving martyrdom. The longer police wait to attack, the more civilian lives will be lost. I just read this; it looks like the UK came to the same conclusion that I did. Britain's special forces have been given orders to shoot to kill if jihadi gunmen launch a Paris-style attack in the UK. Armed police have been ordered by Whitehall to 'take swift action to neutralise terrorists, rather than to cordon and negotiate' with them in a major strategy switch.http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3320764/Corbyn-not-happy-special-forces-given-orders-shoot-kill-terrorists-Britain-s-streets.html Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thejokeexplained Posted November 16, 2015 Author Share Posted November 16, 2015 When I heard that the siege at Le Bataclan had lasted hours, I knew that cops were using the wrong tactics. Islamist terrorists wearing suicide vests can't be negotiated with, as all they want to do is kill as many people as possible before achieving martyrdom. The longer police wait to attack, the more civilian lives will be lost. I just read this; it looks like the UK came to the same conclusion that I did. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3320764/Corbyn-not-happy-special-forces-given-orders-shoot-kill-terrorists-Britain-s-streets.htmlI don't think there is any tactics that will shut this down or even help. If the new policy for these murders is to drive up to what ever place they choose armed to the teeth, what can be done to stop it? Even armed security is no match for the surprise of this type. I'm not sure anything can be done to stop it, nor do i think worrying about it while living your life is important. I'm sure there were more people killed in traffic fatalities world wide last friday then this attack. I'm not gonna stop driving but i will always be aware of the dangers when i get behind the wheel. It's sad we have to live in a world that the advent of the internet and 24 hour news outlets can install so much fear when and where they choose. Terror has always been involved in the human race, but when it's shoved down our throats it makes those doing the terror that much more powerful. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thejokeexplained Posted November 16, 2015 Author Share Posted November 16, 2015 My husband and I went to "Spectre" this weekend One of the best Bond films i have seen in some time! I know 007 could kick the shit out of some terrorist. Bond's been doing it since i was a kid! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hixter Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 I don't think there is any tactics that will shut this down or even help. If the new policy for these murders is to drive up to what ever place they choose armed to the teeth, what can be done to stop it? Even armed security is no match for the surprise of this type.Unless they run out of ammo or are rushed by a group of civilians, armed security and police are really the only way to bring an attack to an end. Once an attack begins it's not a matter of saving every life, but rather saving as many lives as possible. It's difficult to watch live video from the scene that shows armed police milling around outside while hearing gunshots continue to ring out in the building. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eternal Instigator Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 One of the best Bond films i have seen in some time! I know 007 could kick the shit out of some terrorist. Bond's been doing it since i was a kid! I thought the two before this one were a little better, but I've embraced Daniel Craig as my Bond - the only one that I've accepted besides Sean Connery and Roger Moore! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eternal Instigator Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Unless they run out of ammo or are rushed by a group of civilians, armed security and police are really the only way to bring an attack to and end. Once an attack begins it's not a matter of saving every life, but rather saving as many lives as possible. It's difficult to watch live video from the scene that shows armed police milling around outside while hearing gunshots continue to ring out in the building.I'm sure the police who were on orders to stand down were feeling pretty helpless and frustrated, too. I don't know how you can watch those videos... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hixter Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 I don't know how you can watch those videos...It was on live TV on one of the news channels. I only caught a few minutes of the broadcast between drinking beer with the fellas. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
John Smith Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 The video I saw showed that when the police peeked around the corner of the building they were sprayed with automatic fire. It looked like the police were armed with pistols and shot guns, not a favorable match up. I would bet that they were occupying the shooters attention till properly equipped help arrived. And from what I could see from google earth and video of the scene, there is very little cover or concealment on the main road. And we don't know what was going on around other corners etc... As to rushing the gunmen...at least one survivor said that one would shoot and the other played lookout so no opportunities to rush them were available...and of course no one rushes towards automatic rifle fire, even if properly trained it's not easy. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thejokeexplained Posted November 16, 2015 Author Share Posted November 16, 2015 The video I saw showed that when the police peeked around the corner of the building they were sprayed with automatic fire. It looked like the police were armed with pistols and shot guns, not a favorable match up. I would bet that they were occupying the shooters attention till properly equipped help arrived. If they were shooting at police they weren't shooting at the public. I'm sure any police presence was helpful. The thing that is most upsetting to me is the fact that most of these venues that the bands we love; like wilco play, do not have a lot of exits and everyone is crammed in together. That makes for easy targets with little to no threat to the gunman. I'm not sure why more didn't perished at the Bataclan. It could have been much worse all things considered. I'm sure when the authorities arrived some of the gunmen left the venue to hold them off. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bob_Roberts Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Terrorists looking to maximize body counts will always be able to find a soft target. The list is long: churches, schools, airports (pre-security checkpoint), public transit, etc. Metal detectors wouldn't stop an attack like we saw in Paris; the only thing that would be of any use would be large numbers of heavily armed police officers and that's too expensive for most venues. And now is a good time to remember that Edward Snowden's disclosures have made it much more difficult for intelligence agencies to prevent coordinated attacks. Regarding what you said about Snowden, it's just not true: https://theintercept.com/2015/11/15/exploiting-emotions-about-paris-to-blame-snowden-distract-from-actual-culprits-who-empowered-isis/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hixter Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Regarding what you said about Snowden, it's just not true: https://theintercept.com/2015/11/15/exploiting-emotions-about-paris-to-blame-snowden-distract-from-actual-culprits-who-empowered-isis/It most certainly is true. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bob_Roberts Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 It most certainly is true.I'd recommend reading the article. It offers clear evidence that the terrorists have been aware of an our spying capabilities for a very long time. Snowden's revelations were no surprise to them. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hixter Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 I'd recommend reading the article. It offers clear evidence that the terrorists have been aware of an our spying capabilities for a very long time. Snowden's revelations were no surprise to them. I read it carefully and still stand by my statement. Terrorists have had a vague, unfounded idea of our spying capabilities for a long time, but now they have definitive proof and know about our billion-dollar operations in exquisite detail. It's ridiculous to suggest that terrorists already knew everything that Snowden leaked. If they had, it wouldn't have been worth leaking. Snowden ran the biggest, most damaging espionage operation in our nation's history. He severely damaged the security of our nation and many of our allied nations. He and anyone who helped him to distribute untold thousands of Top Secret documents to anyone -- including our enemies -- should be tried and sentenced to spend the rest of their lives in prison. Personally, I'd be quite pleased to see them executed for the grave damage they've done to our nation. Their actions have caused, and will continue to cause, great loss of life. "Top Secret" shall be applied to information, the unauthorized disclosure of which reasonably could be expected to cause exceptionally grave damage to the national security. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bob_Roberts Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 I read it carefully and still stand by my statement. Terrorists have had a vague, unfounded idea of our spying capabilities for a long time, but now they have definitive proof and know about our billion-dollar operations in exquisite detail. It's ridiculous to suggest that terrorists already knew everything that Snowden leaked. If they had, it wouldn't have been worth leaking. Snowden ran the biggest, most damaging espionage operation in our nation's history. He severely damaged the security of our nation and many of our allied nations. He and anyone who helped him to distribute untold thousands of Top Secret documents to anyone -- including our enemies -- should be tried and sentenced to spend the rest of their lives in prison. Personally, I'd be quite pleased to see them executed for the grave damage they've done to our nation. Their actions have caused, and will continue to cause, great loss of life. Of course you'd like to see Snowden and Greenwald executed. It's because you're a fascist. I'm not using the term as a pejorative but as a descriptive. I just can't see any other explanation for your calls for execution of whistleblowers and journalists. (ironic that we're on a Wilco message board - Wilco having recorded songs by Woody Guthrie - Woody wasn't a big friend of fascists.) I guess I'm just very conservative when it comes to accepting the claims of any government as true simply because they came out of an official's mouth. That's the conservative position. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hixter Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Of course you'd like to see Snowden and Greenwald executed. It's because you're a fascist. Oh, that's rich. Or maybe I'm someone who held a security clearance for many years and took my oath and my nation's security seriously. But none of that matters because espionage and treason are legally punishable by death. Just ask the Rosenburgs. I guess I'm just very conservative when it comes to accepting the claims of any government as true simply because they came out of an official's mouth. That's the conservative position.President Obama, Secretaries of State Clinton and Kerry, current and former heads of intelligence agencies, top military officers and our allies have all said that Snowden's actions have caused grave damage to our nation's security, but go ahead and believe the words of a single man if you'd like -- a single man who knowingly and purposefully violated an oath, illegally accessed classified information and then ran away to two of our nation's biggest adversaries. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thejokeexplained Posted November 17, 2015 Author Share Posted November 17, 2015 I wonder if Snowden had gotten wind, and somehow had a advance copy of "Star Wars." Would he have Leaked it to the interweb or here at via chicago at the very least? I have always thought better of those that could keep a secret. Anyway i hope Snowdens betrayal didn't cause concert venues to be subject to terror. That would suck! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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