dtram

When I young, I did not care for the post car/surf stuff - but as I got older, Friends became one of my favorite Beach Boys albums.

Firends is great. If you took the Sunflower/Surf's Up two-fer and picked the 10-12 best tracks you'd have one amazing record. This Whole World, Forever, Our Sweeet Love, Feel Flows, Long Promised Road, Disney Girls, Til I Die; just great stuff.

Oh, I respect it - but at least on some of the sessions of the old Smile, some of the band played on some of the tracks. At least I think that is true. I do know that they are on some of the Pet Sounds tracks. I've always admired the Wrecking Crew - particularity Hal Blaine. I also have a thing about drum sounds, and to me, the old stuff just sounds better.

I thought I read that the BB's really didn't take part in any of the instrumental sessions for Smile, hopefully the release has detailed session notes to clear that up. As for PS, I thought the only song any BB's played instruments on was That's Not Me and I thought it was only Carl and Dennis but haven't read the liner notes in a while. For me, when Brian went off the road and started using the wrecking crew exclusivley is when I really get interested in their music. However, the post Smile era, Wild Honey through Holland, I like a lot. Some really underated and underappreciated music in there.

Agreed. This is true for just about every band. Listen to Ringo on "Free as a Bird"/"Real Love" and compare his drum sound to the drum sound on any Beatles track. Listen to any pre 1980 vs. post 1980 Zappa drum track. Listen to Neil Peart on Fly By Night and then listen to anything he's done in the last 20 years.

That would be that GD Jeff Lynne. I'm no recording engineer so I dont what exactly those effects are but they drive me nuts. He ruined the Wilbury's records and the Petty records with that sound. Thank God he appears to have left the scene, or at least doesn't produce records I listen to.

The thing is - it sticks out like a sore thumb to me. For various reasons - they are in their late 60s/early 70s now, and Dennis and Carl are gone. I would be surprised if Brian, Al, and Mike could get it together to actually do whatever it is they need to do.

 

And of course - there is the issue of the equipment. As Little Steven once said - at some point these days - you have to go to the digital stage - no way around it. I'd much rather hear the original tapes turned to whatever digital form they have to be made into for us to get them - than I would a bunch of pro-tools effect laden vocals added on at this point in time.

 

I understand this sort of thing does not bother some people. To me, it is like the difference between lossless and lossy files. I notice it right away, and it sticks in my head. One of the reasons I decided not to buy the Exile on Main Street re-issue was due to the fact that stuff was added on, and that the whole thing seemed to be running slower than before.

 

I've heard the Brian Wilson version of Smile, and I don't care for it at all. For me, one of the reasons I have always been attracted to the Beach Boys was due to the sounds they made together.

I absolutely agree that it could stick out like a sore thumb and that's why i said that i hoped they'd scrap the idea of adding vocals if it sounded like they weren't working. I think what the idea of adding vocals has going for it, is that this is the beach boys and they were a vocal group. Smile would not have been an instrumental record and to have an instrumental release isn't what it would have been in 1967. It would only be instrumental because they never got around to recording the vocals for some songs.

Again, I am not saying i am for adding vocals yet, i need to think about it some more, but i think 2 versions, one 60's pure and one with new vocals could work if done well.

Kind of surprised you don't care for BWPS. That backing band of his gives the wrecking crew a run for their money and the vocalists he has are just top notch. For me, in the pro tools world of today, that was the most organic sounding record I'd heard in a long time. I believe it was recorded with old tube equipment. To me, Smile would have been a BB record in name only anyway, more so than even Pet Sounds, so i had no problem with him finishing it with others; and VDP did finish the lyrics. Seeing that live twice was one of the thrills of my life.

I think 2004 is more the band leader's vision.

What do you mean by that?

Nice interview, but it left me with the feeling they're going to screw this thing up. Hope I'm wrong about that.

I got that feeling too when he said they still need to assemble it and then present it to the band, that is the scary part.

I'd say the old stuff sounds better.

 

 

 

I hope they stick to not adding any vocals or other parts to anything.

Guess I'm torn. The purist in me doesn't want it touched, the other part wants some vocals. I think they should do it both ways, what the hell? You have the choice to listen to it with and without vocals. It could sound like a train wreck though so i would hope if they went with that line of thinking, they would have the self awaerness to realize if it sounded like shit to scrap it.

I only feel that way because the songs, especially Blue Hawaii and On A Holiday sound so much better with vocals. I can't wait for this.

Nice interview with Mark Linett in Billboard:

http://www.billboard.com/#/features/beach-boys-engineer-talks-about-the-smile-1005071622.story

yeah, like it says on the cover it wouldn't be the running order, but i think they were the songs that would have made it as the core and all these other things like Child Is The Father Of The Man etc... would have either not been on it or just minor elements within main songs. i think i read that hereos and villians was mixed and completed in 2 parts which was going to be the A and B side of the single, so that song alone is going to be incredible if they do have the tapes of that finished, and maybe that contains the elements of these shorter lesser songs which i think were too expanded on the 2004 issue.

I think so too. I ve often wondered if the heroes part one and two actually exist or not. You would think if it did it would've made it onto the boxed set. My hunch is that the 6 minute heroes sections is all that there is that is extra but i really hope I'm wrong.

It funny, for me, there isn't a wasted note on BWPS, i think it is perfection. I think it flows extremely well and i think the shorter lesser songs you refer to are the right length. They actually shortened Look when it was converted into song for children and i love the way Child was (re)constructed. Regardless, i think we're just debating over degrees perfection here and that the boxed set version of this will be as close as they can come to what it probably would've sounded like in the sixties. That way, we have both ways and everyone is happy.

now it's compression we have to worry about! us music fans can never win. i'll believe this when i see it. now, i thought some of the original tracks were used in the 2004 disc? i liked the first movement on that disc, but the rest sounded like an original cast musical recording. i wonder if they'll add some vocals like springsteen did to his latest release? anyway, this speculation stuff is fun as hell.

As far as i know, they were not allowed to use anything from the 66-67 sessions in 2004, everything was rerecorded. They did it on older equipment to get the sound as close as possible. Definitely hear you about it sounding a little broadway but IMO, if all broadway sounded like that, id be a show tunes fan.

the back cover of the album artwork they made in 67 was this:

 

Do You Like Worms

Wind Chimes

Heroes And Villains

Surfs Up

Good Vibrations

Cabin Essence

Wonderful

I’m In Great Shape

The Elements

Vega-Tables

The Old Master Painter

 

see it here: http://img140.images...ck300dping6.jpg

 

but, it says "see label for correct playing order"

 

now, that is a very weird running order they used, and it depends what "the elements" was going to include (i thought vega-tables & wind chimes were both part of that suite, but they are listed seperately?), but they might go with that tracklisting but in a different order for the official release. to me that looks a lot more succinct and realistic of how long the album would have been. i'm positive that the brian wilson smile from 2004 included far more just because they were hearing all this music and were too overwhelmed to throw any of it away.

I thought the original Priore book said that that running order was Brian scribbling the songs on a piece of paper for Capitol and was never meant to be the real running order. Yeah there's no doubt to me that 2004 used more than they would have for that reason and, they had more room.

Yeah, I'm excited for the release of it. But one of the things I've always loved about Smile is it's fluidity, it never tangibly existed so it could be whatever you made out of the boots out there. David Thomas of Pere Ubu once said that Smile was “the only perfect record that was ever made, because it only existed in the imaginations of Brian Wilson’s fans… you would listen to all of the working tapes and you would assemble the perfect track from all these incomplete views of it in your head. And therefore it was perfect because it never existed."

 

So an official release of the sessions ends this idea, but the idea of upgrading my boxes and boxes of session bootlegs into a remastered nice sounding set is great. They just better include the outtake of Brian getting stuck inside of a piano (this might have been staged).

I think that was true before 2004 but once it got finished, it kind of ended the mystery thing, at least to me. We're all getting older, i just want pristine copies of it. I just hope they don't compress the shit out of it though.

So how does Mike Love fuck up the release of this?

By getting a bug up his ass that he isn't "represented" enough or some bullshit like that and blocks its release. I think he held up the PS box for a year. I think this will come out this time but wont really believe it until I'm holding it.

i doubt it will be like brian wilson presents smile - i think that is too bloated to have been anywhere near what the album would have been like in the 1960s. i'm also really glad they're sticking with mono, it's going to sound brilliant - i'm just really anti stereo when it comes to music that was made whilst thinking about mono production, you just can't record and arrange things with mono in mind and then turn it into stereo without it sounding lacking . anyway, this box set is going to cost a fortune, so i'm going to start saving now.

I wouldn't think it would be anything like BWPS but when the article above says that 2004 will be the blueprint, it makes you wonder. Not sure i agree with 2004 being bloated, its only 5 or 10 minutes longer than a 60's release would have been. Yeah its longer but the three movement thing works for me. Obviously not how it would've been done but i like it.

As for the mono/stereo thing, i never listen to the mono pet sounds after the boxed stereo version came out, the stereo sounds so much better to me, richer. I think that has to with the care they took in assembling the stereo mix off of the 16 track reels. I wasn't like they just took the mono master and whacked it in half, but i respect your opinion; there are a lot of mono purists out there. It's weird because i would be inclined to be one. I would never watch a colorized version of a B&W movie but i prefer stereo over mono if it is done well.

I would, especially if you like Eno. Spinning Away and The River are amazing, and Empty Frame has almost a Beach Boys vibe. I love those songs.

Yup, spinning away was one I couldn't remember the title, love that tune. Always thought it would go great as the last song of a movie where a car is driving off into the sunset, that song plays over it and then fades into the credits.

If you remeber the show Northern Exposure, they used Lay My Love once. I think it was a scene where Ed and Ruth Ann buried someone at the top of hill, then had this sort of joyful dance together as the song played. Cool stuff.

I read somewhere a while back that Al had retracted what he said - and now this article appears on Billboard.com:

 

Beach Boys' Lost 'Smile' Album to See Release in 2011

Sweet. Little disapointed it's coming out in Mono and that DB Priore is writing the liner notes but as a Smile fan, this is all you can ask for. I hope the running order is a close approximation of what BW had in mind in '66 (what, if any part he can remember) and not the BWPS order. I like the BWPS order but we have that and I would be much more interested in what would have been. Sign me up for the boxed set.

Thanks for the post.

- REVEAL: Seems criminally under-rated, but I think that's due to a middle 4-song stretch (She Just Wants to Be, Disappear, Saturn Return, Beat a Drum) that likely bog down the record for most.

 

- ACCELERATE: Nice attempt, nice energy, but not a good R.E.M. album to me. Seems musically and lyrically forced many times. I hardly ever (never) feel inspired to give it a spin.

 

Reveal, for me its the 3 songs stretch of Reno, Shes Just Wants to Be and Disappear with She being the major offender, can't stand it. I've always liked Saturn for some reason. I have solved the problem by omitting She and putting Fascinating between Beat A Drum and Imitation. Record works much better for me that way.

Accelerate - Liked from the 1st listen but the loudness killed it. Now that I have the vinyl rip I find I go back to it much more.

I've always thought Up was great ATS was shit, seems to be the one thing the majority of REM fans agree on.

Did you see that Matthew Perpetua ranking of the records? Has all the post Berry records ranked 11-15 and Monster 4th. That's what got me started on my post above, how anyone can rank Monster as the 4th best REM record is beyond me and gets to my point of when in our lives we hear something has such an effect on perception. I'd bet a lot of money if that wasn't the first REM album he got it's the first he deeply cared about. There just isn't any way that album can objectively be ranked over Reckoning. I'd put it 14th, right in front of ATS.

And then, after checking out all of his early stuff, this album from 1990 is also really freaking good:

Cale + Eno - Wrong Way Up

Looks like the CD reissue has a couple of bonus tracks, but I have an earlier pressing. Go with the reissue. More music almost always = more good. Especially with an album like this one.

I couldn't get enough of this record when it came out but it hasn't aged well for me. I still love the opening track and a few others. I should go back and give it another shot.

And Paris 1919 is awesome.

I gotta say, I think I liked the world better when there were 2 or 3 major music publications, you read the reviews, agreed or disagreed and that was that, you liked it or you didnt. I know I sound like an old man, I guess I am.

Reading all of these reviews, some positive, some negative and all these varied comments is starting to wear on me. And I know the answer, if it annoys you, dont read it, but it is kind of like crack, I cant stop.

I remember this scathing review of Green when it came out, Pop Song sounds too much like Exhuming McCarthy, Inside out is Finest Working, Hairshirt sucks, etc. This disagrement on CiN is nothing new. I guess it's cool that people care about REM so much to have such strong opionions one way or the other.

We all come at records at different times in our lives and I believe that can affect judgement. I have never anticipated a record more than Out of Time, but as a 22 year old, that was the last thing I wanted at the time, I would have much preferred something that rocked more. While I adapted and liked it anyway because it was REM, I had friends that tuned them out and never came back.

I actually have no idea where I'm going with any of this except that I've listened to the thing more than 15 times, love every song except Every Day Is Yours to Win (like the music, the lyrics not so much) and am thrilled REM have made a record in 2011 that I like this much.

Accelerate: everything except for the title track, ironically.

Funny, felt exactly the same way although now that i have the vinyl rip of the record, I curiously like the title cut much more. Sing for the Submarine is actually staring to get on my nerves. I never loved it but felt it worked to break the faster louder songs. Now it just seems kind or dirgy to me and not that interesting. The record is short enough that I dont skip it but had it been on one of their 60+ minute opus' I probably would never listen to it.

I am also in the "I don't really like this album" club. Am I the only one who thinks the record gets bogged down by too many same sounding songs that sound like mandolin era Out Of Time meets acoustic New Adventures In Hi-Fi?

I think that's probably a good description for 2 of the songs, Oh My Heart and Marlon Brando. I totally love MB, really grew on me.

I think I said earlier in this thread that not liking this album is valid opinion, (i'm sure those of you who dont like it will thank me for allowing you to not like it )if you dont like REM, this is not for you. If you do though, its a pretty good collection of REM songs. IMO, REM's strengh always was writing good catchy songs. They would dress them up in different costumes but at the end of the day, it was always about the songs. One of the reasons why I always thought Monster suffered was they got too concerned about the form and forgot to write great songs.

Even if you are an REM fan, maybe these songs dont hit you now, maybe they will at some point, maybe not.

My problem with critics bashing the record is that their job is to critque whether a band accomplished what it seems that they set out to do. IMO, REM set out to make a diverse record or catchy songs, some softer, some louder. I think they accomplished that mission and deserve credit for it. To get snarky about it is uncalled for, I think their catalog gives them the benefit of the doubt.

Greg Kot sure isn't impressed. See below from the Trib this morning. Two out of four stars...ouch.

 

LouieB

 

What better band to cover R.E.M. than R.E.M.? That’s exactly what the longtime Athens, Ga., trio sounds like it’s doing on its 15th studio album, “Collapse Into Now” (Warner Bros.).

 

In the tradition of rock legends rehashing their best moves on mid-career studio albums – the Rolling Stones’ “Some Girls” in 1978 or U2’s aptly named “All That You Can’t Leave Behind” in 2000 – “Collapse Into Now” is an echo of past glories. If nothing else it reminds us that R.E.M. is fully aware of what it did best and when. Those glory years are now nearly two decades past – “Automatic for the People” in 1992 was their last indisputably great album (though I’d make a case for the 1996 “New Adventures in Hi Fi”).

 

The band re-energized itself in 2008 with the lean, pithy, hard-rocking “Accelerate.” It ended a string of snoozy, ballad-heavy Michael Stipe-dominated albums by amping up Peter Buck’s guitar and Mike Mills’ essential backing vocals.

 

“Collapse Into Now” takes a similarly democratic approach and expands on it, juggling rockers with textured acoustic pieces. Buck’s guitar blasts open the album with promising bravado on “Discoverer” and “All the Best” and Stipe swaggers: “Let’s show the kids how to do it fine.” Mills, always the band’s not-so-secret weapon, adds a big dollop of melody and texture; he brings majesty to even the slower, weaker songs (“It Happened Today,” “Every Day is Yours to Win”) with his wordless harmonies.

 

A few guests are on hand to dress things up, but they’re used in predictable ways: Peaches brings attitude to the punch-drunk silliness of "Alligator Aviator Autopilot Antimatter"; Patti Smith plays shaman-like muse to Stipe on the eerie soundscape “Blue” (which demands to be listened to once, then never again); Eddie Vedder adds mournful gravitas to “It Happened Today.”

 

Similarly, riffs and melodies that remind us of past, better R.E.M. songs abound: the acoustic melancholy of “Drive” resurfaces on “Uberlin,” the chanting rock moves of “It’s the End of the World as We Know It (and I Feel Fine)” resurface on “Alligator Aviator Autopilot Antimatter” and “Walk It Back” retraces the power-ballad A-B-C’s of “Everybody Hurts.”

 

It’s all done earnestly. In “Oh My Heart,” Stipe comes home to “a city half-erased” but emerges with hope: “The storm didn’t kill me/The government changed.” On “Blue,” he exults, “This is my time and I am thrilled to be alive.” But if there’s to be a vital future for R.E.M., the band can’t continue recycling its past.

This review was posted to murmurs too. Apparently he loves the Decemberists for sounding like old R.E.M. but R.E.M. themselves are not allowed to.

It's pretty simple; it's a good batch of songs. If you liked R.E.M. between 1986 and 1996, you're probably going to like this. Does it break new ground? Probably not but does music always have to? Can songs just have good hooks and be fun to listen to? Seems to me that some critics feel that since the last decade or so for R.E.M. has been spotty, that ripping the record is the safe route to go, better to be wrong and be negative instead of gushing over the thing and then realizing a month later you were probably wrong and it isn't so great, if that makes sense.

I'd bet anything if this record came out in 1994 it would get universal 5 star reviews (which it probably wouldn't deserve) but since the last 10 years have been spotty (in most of the publics optinion anyway) it isn't cool to gush.

My 2 cents.

I don't know - jut not my cup of tea. I like the REM that did songs about the South, and told stories. Every band changes, some older fans go along on the trip, some don't.

 

Monster was one of the last cassettes I ever bought in an actual record store.

 

I will give this new one a listen, but I doubt I will buy it.

That's fair. We all have our share of bands where theres a period we dig much more than others. Stipe could sing the phone book and I'd probably like it. Think I'll put on Voice of Harold now that i think about it:-)

Yes it's just a really, really good record. Totally agree on R.E.M.'s career trajectory in the States. But 'eff it. At least they have stayed interesting. Someone like U2 haven't taken an artistic chance in about 15 years. Well not if you don't include the worst single of their career - the execrable "Get In Your Boots".

I definitely agree with that. Most of the post berry records were ignored but 4 of the 5 of them are really good and if you're in a sunny mood you have reveal to put on, a rocking mood, accelerate, etc.

As for U2, after all you cant leave behind i kinda tuned them out. It sounds to me that they aren't taking chances but without having heard them, it's not fair to say. Thats what concerns me about rem's next step. Do they get experimental again and if not, do they get lumped in with U2?

Exactly. "New Adventures in Hi-Fi" turned on to be the album that Monster should have been. I'd love to have been an insider on the making of "Hi-Fi". Especially re: Michael Stipe. The ultimate product of their recording isn't complete until he comes up with the melody and lyrics. You get the impression that with "NAIHF" he must have been forced to be a lot quicker in producing both. Yet the results are so good.

Yeah, i thought that too at the time. I will always believe that monster was just about the worst thing they could've done at the time for their US popularity. Just about any record they did after, ATS included, would have held a lot of that audience that came on board in the 90's. Yeah, monster sold a lot, but a lot of those got played once and never again. Following it up with ebow as the first single was kind of the nail in the coffin as far as US popularity. Now maybe they don't give a shit, and on some level i think they might have gotten leary of how big they were, but it's human nature, no one wants to be less popular than they once were. They thought they could do what ever they wanted and the audience would follow but that proved to not be the case.

As for CIN, on about listen 6 or 7 and can't get enough, that flac rip sounds great too, so much better than stream rip.

No afraid I am a luddite on this stuff. Can't wait until Tuesday. Agree on "Everyday is Yours To Win". Find the part where the lead guitar and Mill's backing vocals come in kinda clunky and clumsy relative to the rest of the song. Bot overall. far effin better than I dared imagine 15 albums and 30 years in. Really hope the positive response from fans and critics inspires a tour. Living in Seattle it would be very conceivable to see Eddie Vedder joining them for "It Happened Today".

There's a flac of the record on demonoid.me and bunch of mp3 rips, sounds much better.

I think I meant to say the song What's The Frequency, Kenneth? sounds disjointed.

Really? Well, mills did suffer appendicitis during it's recording and they say you can hear the song slow down at the end although i never noticed it. I remember hearing Kenneth when it came out and thinking, wow, if monster is half as good as this song we have a classic. Unfortunately is was half as good, IMO, and it's not quite a classic. Is a good record while engaging in a little of the old in out, in out if you hear what I'm saying.

That album sounds out of key, or musically out of time, or something like that.

That's why they called Out of Time out of time, beacuse it was so different than what was popular then.

My problem with Monster is that they got so focused on making a loud record, the kind of forgot to write great songs. I actually like the record if I'm in the right mood for it as they did do a good job capturing a mood. Stipe just got so wrapped up in this glam personna that he turned in what is probably his weakest collection of melodies.

And make no mistake, the key to the band has always been him. Yes the other guys help make the sound what it is but without his amazing melodic talent, listen to their instrumental demos and then what he does to them, we aren't on this thread now.