Bible thumping teenagers

[Good Old Neon]

Here is a clearer explanation of Singer's view - from the horses mouth - so to speak.

 

"When a woman has an abortion, the fetus is alive, and it is undoubtedly human

[ction]

The problem with your retort - who decides when life begins? Who decides when an unthinking, unfeeling fetus becomes a fully functional, lucid, self aware human? Can you, with any amount of certainty, inform us as to when, exactly, that occurs?

 

To be fair, I'd say that the burden of proof on this question lies with anyone arguing in favor of abortion rights, not against. If you want to be able to justify the termination of a pregnancy, then you prove when life begins.

[Good Old Neon]

To be fair, I'd say that the burden of proof on this question lies with anyone arguing in favor of abortion rights, not against. If you want to be able to justify the termination of a pregnancy, then you prove when life begins.

 

Birth.

[ction]

Birth.

 

You must have stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

[JUDE]

To be fair, I'd say that the burden of proof on this question lies with anyone arguing in favor of abortion rights, not against. If you want to be able to justify the termination of a pregnancy, then you prove when life begins.

 

Who decides when an unthinking, unfeeling fetus becomes a fully functional, lucid, self aware human?

 

What part of this statement don't you get, Jesuit.

[ikol]

The problem with your retort - who decides when life begins? Who decides when an unthinking, unfeeling fetus becomes a fully functional, lucid, self aware human? Can you, with any amount of certainty, inform us as to when, exactly, that occurs?

 

That's assuming that the only criteria we have for not killing the fetus is self awareness, an assertion I never made. In fact, I'm not even sure a full-term newborn has that capacity. Using that logic, you could kill people in their sleep because they wouldn't be conscious. Regardless of what Singer says, I think the potential argument is valid. I've heard a similar argument for why death is a bad thing (I don't remember the philosopher). The gist of it is this: we don't really know what happens when we die, but lets assume for this argument that you just permanently cease to exist. If that's the case, why is death considered a bad thing, and why is it considered to be an injustice to the victim to kill someone? How can something be unjust to someone that doesn't exist? Despite these problems, we still think that death is bad and murder is unjust (and specifically to the victim, not just their family). The only way that makes sense is if it's bad for the potential person that could have gone on existing. Using the same logic, abortion is unjust to the potential person that was prevented from existing.

 

I find your carjacking anology lacking, and with all due respect

[bobbob1313]

Ikol > all y'all

[bjorn_skurj]

Ikol > all y'all

Hmm. Perhaps Analogman was right about the "Reagan youth."

[Analogman]

Yikes !?

[bjorn_skurj]

It is certainly the case that the center of political thought in this country has moved toward the right in the last 20 years or so.

[bobbob1313]

Hmm. Perhaps Analogman was right about the "Reagan youth."

 

I could care less about his politics, but he's one of the few people here who has a level head and actually takes the time to debate specific points with people. He gets shit on by 90% of the board because "omg republicanz" but he's probably the main reason we achieve anything close to intelligent discourse on this board when it comes to politics, and I'm guilty of it as well.

[bjorn_skurj]

I could care less about his politics, but he's one of the few people here who has a level head and actually takes the time to debate specific points with people. He gets shit on by 90% of the board because "omg republicanz" but he's probably the main reason we achieve anything close to intelligent discourse on this board when it comes to politics, and I'm guilty of it as well.

I would agree. I think we on the left have damaged ourselves by generally acting like GOPers are uncool, rather than arguing about ideas.

[Analogman]

It is certainly the case that the center of political thought in this country has moved toward the right in the last 20 years or so.

 

I agree with that. We'll see what happens next year.

[austrya]

Plus, Ikol has a way of putting things that makes me laugh. He's smart AND funny.

[bobbob1313]

I would agree. I think we on the left have damaged ourselves by generally acting like GOPers are uncool, rather than arguing about ideas.

 

Thats mostly my problem with most of the political discussion that happens, on both sides. We attack the person making the argument instead of the actual argument. Or we disagree with everything someone says simply because they align with a different party.

 

And for being the party of open mindedness, I see a lot of outright dismissal of ideas by democrats. I'm not sure what, if any, political party I would align myself with, but right now, I know it wouldn't be the democrats or the republicans, and that's not going to change until we realize not every issue has a yes or no response.

[bjorn_skurj]

I was going to mark Sept. 11, 2002, by joining the Green Party, but then I didn't.

[bobbob1313]

It makes me really sad that because of the way our country is run, there is no gray area. Everything has to be black or white, or else your opinion doesn't matter...

[ikol]

I'm not sure what, if any, political party I would align myself with, but right now, I know it wouldn't be the democrats or the republicans, and that's not going to change until we realize not every issue has a yes or no response.

 

To be honest, I see myself more as a Libertarian who reluctantly votes Republican.

[EL the Famous]

It makes me really sad that because of the way our country is run, there is no gray area. Everything has to be black or white, or else your opinion doesn't matter...

 

i would consider myself a democrat...but have become just as annoyed by liberal rhetoric as i am the right side of things. like you said, everything has to be black/white and the world just isn't like that.

 

you're obviously learning something, b...it took me years after college to realize that.

[bobbob1313]

i would consider myself a democrat...but have become just as annoyed by liberal rhetoric as i am the right side of things. like you said, everything has to be black/white and the world just isn't like that.

 

you're obviously learning something, b...it took me years after college to realize that.

 

I think it helps that my best friend is one of the smartest people I know and he refuses to see anything from the right's point of view, and it gets frustrating. I consider myself pretty (morally) liberal, and he makes me look like Dick Cheney. It just gets really frustrating to see obviously smart people (on both sides) let their frustration get the best of them and they just stop thinking.

[Atticus]

When it comes to the Bible, CNN's poll found that 57 percent say they believe the Book of Revelations' description of the violent end of the world, where all but Christians perish. Nearly one in five believes it will happen in their lifetime.

 

But of the 750 Christians in the poll, nearly eight in 10 said that people of other beliefs could get into heaven, while only 17 percent believe that only Christians can.

 

[Artifex]

"To be honest, I see myself more as a Libertarian who reluctantly votes Republican. "

 

 

As would most evangelical Christians, I think.

 

I'm glad that this thread has a bit of a 'happy' ending. Usually discussions about religion on here get pretty petty at times, but usually it isn't this bad. I could jump in with my own thoughts, but then I'm just a lazy, Bible-thumping teenager.

 

 

 

P.S. Listen to 'Pedro the Lion'.

[Good Old Neon]

That's assuming that the only criteria we have for not killing the fetus is self awareness, an assertion I never made. In fact, I'm not even sure a full-term newborn has that capacity. Using that logic, you could kill people in their sleep because they wouldn't be conscious. Regardless of what Singer says, I think the potential argument is valid. I've heard a similar argument for why death is a bad thing (I don't remember the philosopher). The gist of it is this: we don't really know what happens when we die, but lets assume for this argument that you just permanently cease to exist. If that's the case, why is death considered a bad thing, and why is it considered to be an injustice to the victim to kill someone? How can something be unjust to someone that doesn't exist? Despite these problems, we still think that death is bad and murder is unjust (and specifically to the victim, not just their family). The only way that makes sense is if it's bad for the potential person that could have gone on existing. Using the same logic, abortion is unjust to the potential person that was prevented from existing.

 

I used carjacking analogy because it was something that we would obviously agree to be a violation of rights, so that I could illustrate my point: if you think someone's rights are being violated, you can't just respect the violator's autonomy. If I picked an example where we disagreed on the premise that rights were being violated (say, abortion), then I wouldn't have gotten my point across.

 

[Good Old Neon]

I think it helps that my best friend is one of the smartest people I know and he refuses to see anything from the right's point of view, and it gets frustrating. I consider myself pretty (morally) liberal, and he makes me look like Dick Cheney. It just gets really frustrating to see obviously smart people (on both sides) let their frustration get the best of them and they just stop thinking.

 

This friend of yours

[Good Old Neon]

"To be honest, I see myself more as a Libertarian who reluctantly votes Republican. "

As would most evangelical Christians, I think.

 

I'm glad that this thread has a bit of a 'happy' ending. Usually discussions about religion on here get pretty petty at times, but usually it isn't this bad. I could jump in with my own thoughts, but then I'm just a lazy, Bible-thumping teenager.

P.S. Listen to 'Pedro the Lion'.

 

With all due respect, I think Evangelical Christian is the very antitheses of Libertarian.