MLB 2007

[bjorn_skurj]

Honestly, I don't think anyone really gives a shit about what was legal when or not. If your name is linked to these substances, your rep is ruined. Timing might save you from going to jail, but your honor and integrity are lost, perhaps forever.

[Lammycat]

Honestly, I don't think anyone really gives a shit about what was legal when or not. If your name is linked to these substances, your rep is ruined. Timing might save you from going to jail, but your honor and integrity are lost, perhaps forever.

I agree. I'm just pointing out that the use of them were banned earlier than some people like to believe.

[MattZ]

CNN/SI is reporting that Glaus is tied to HGH too... Jeeezus.

[PigSooie]

I like baseball.

[MattZ]

It's only cheating if you were already really good to begin with. The people have spoken.

 

I dont know what people have said that. And I don't know why it's so hard to understand that people might be more upset about treasured records falling to steroids users than run of the mill dudes like Ankiel or Guillermo Mota cheating. Yes, its all cheating and yes it all cheapens the game, but there's a difference in the minds of many fans. News that Clemens and Bonds are cheaters would be a bigger deal than Ankiel and Mota cheating.

[MrRain422]

I can understand why the emotional response is stronger when it's someone breaking records. But some people have been very forgiving of less-than-great players who cheated, and absolutely ruthless with Bonds. The moral transgression is identical. Sure, people are going to care more when it's a big name, but the reasoning given for villifying Bonds is often in direct conflict with the things said about lesser players who did the exact same thing.

 

You stated outright that Bonds cheating and Ankiel cheating are not the same. What is different about it other than that Bonds has been far more successful?

[P Dub]

The reason his name came up is because he was sent HGH by a facility that is being investigated for illegally distributing HGH. The whole "his doctor prescribed it" business is nonsense. A lot of the guys caught up in it have presciptions -- prescriptions that they obtained illegally. That's the whole point.

 

And the argument that he only did it before MLB banned it doesn't hold water either, unless you also want to excuse Bonds, Canseco, McGwire, etc., as their documented use was all before MLB banned steroids and HGH also.

 

I'm not even going to go into the anecdotal stuff, as every player in baseball (and especially those with a little bit of natural power) can hit it that far if they get the right pitch and have air and wind conditions in their favor. Every single one. Guys hit balls out of ballparks well before steroids existed. That doesn't mean anything.

 

Where did you see that Ankiel's doctor's prescription was obtained illegally?

[Duck-Billed Catechist]

CNN/SI is reporting that Glaus is tied to HGH too... Jeeezus.

Glaus is actually tied to steroids as well.

 

As far as Ankiel goes: where there's smoke there's fire. If he took it then he might still be getting it now from a different supplier. I was talking with Kate last night about how much better he's been than his minor league numbers would have one suspect (of course he's not going to keep up a .700 slugging percentage, but still)--she said "Is he on the roids?" I'm sure we're not the only people who suspected that.

[tongue-tied lightning]

how about a list of who ISN'T on roids. That would make it easier.

[Duck-Billed Catechist]

Timo Perez: on the juice.

[tongue-tied lightning]

With 90% of the players on the juice, they are all playing on an even level.

[MrRain422]

Where did you see that Ankiel's doctor's prescription was obtained illegally?

 

I didn't say that it was. I just said that having a prescription means squat, as a lot of those who do have them got them illegally.

 

More importantly, the reason we're talking about Ankiel isn't because he had a prescription for HGH, it's because he bought HGH from a facility that was distributing it illegally. In that context, the prescription is, again, unimportant.

[Lammycat]

With 90% of the players on the juice, they are all playing on an even level.

Where are you pulling this number from? Even if it were true (and I strongly doubt it's even close to true) it still wouldn't be an even playing field.

[bobbob1313]

Disagree with what?

 

That they aren't the same thing. You can't use the ends to justify the means. Cheating is cheating is cheating, right?

 

If you think that Bonds cheating and Ankiel cheating are the same thing because they both cheated, well, I fully disagree. But whatever.

 

See: MrRain's posts for my opinion on this. That dude is spot on.

[Lammycat]

That they aren't the same thing. You can't use the ends to justify the means. Cheating is cheating is cheating, right?

Definitely. And those caught using performance enhancers under a ban should be treated accordingly. But I was responding to you're query whether the same folks who were angry with Bonds would be as angry with Ankiel. No.

 

There is a difference in two people equally cheating when one's cheating has a far greater impact on the game.

[bjorn_skurj]

Timo Perez: on the juice.

He is on a very short list of people I would kill on sight.

[tongue-tied lightning]

"Rick Ankiel has stated he's not violated any baseball rules. He has not violated any federal or state laws," said his agent, Scott Boras. "He only has followed the course of treatment prescribed by his medical doctors during the course of his career.

[Duck-Billed Catechist]

The White Sox board is down. Surely flooded with wtfbullpen?! visitors followed by wtfJulioDePaula?! visitors.

[bobbob1313]

"Rick Ankiel has stated he's not violated any baseball rules. He has not violated any federal or state laws," said his agent, Scott Boras. "He only has followed the course of treatment prescribed by his medical doctors during the course of his career.

 

Barry Bonds ruined baseball. Rick Ankiel followed his doctors advice. Cool.

[MattZ]

You stated outright that Bonds cheating and Ankiel cheating are not the same. What is different about it other than that Bonds has been far more successful?

 

There is a difference in two people equally cheating when one's cheating has a far greater impact on the game.

 

The point I was trying to make, perhaps inartfully, was the one Lammycat made above.

 

They both cheated and in that respect its the same -- I have no problem throwing Bonds and Ankiel out of the game (if Bonds were caught red handed). Or tossing both of their stats if there was a way to tie it back. But Bonds' transgressions have a larger impact on the game as a whole and the sanctity of its records. That's what I meant... Bonds' home run record always will have question marks, asterisks, and doubters -- even though he was a star and a HOFer prior to his steroids use. And those questions and that damage have a more damning impact on the game in the long run than some dude named Ankiel that no one will remember in 20 years. Other than the folks here maybe.

[caliber66]

Somebody please explain to me how using a banned substance before it was banned and using a banned subject while it is banned are the same thing?

[rareair]

why can't people respect the doctor-patient privilege?

[bobbob1313]

Whatever, I think it's pretty much the same thing. But then again, I'm one of the few people who has no problems with Bonds, so whatever.

[bjorn_skurj]

Somebody please explain to me how using a banned substance before it was banned and using a banned subject while it is banned are the same thing?

It's a perception thing and related to the Protestant work ethic. Many, if not most, baseball fans are revulsed to varying degrees by ballplayers using chemicals that seem to unnaturally enhance their baseball skills. By unnaturally, I mean a skills enhancement that over and above what would be expected from a diligent workout program and eating properly - both things that normal people struggle with. If an athlete, through attaining a level of self-denial and discipline which most of us fall far short of, does great things, we love him or her almost to death. If an athlete takes an undisciplined shortcut, by taking steroids or HGH, his or her achievements are viewed as fraud and offend the Protestant work ethic. All the talk about when something was legal and when something was not may keep somebody out of jail, but it will convince no one but that player's most partisan of fans that it was all right.

And, nobody who's in good health gets prescribed HGH, do they? No reputable MD would write a scrip for a dude who came in and said he wanted to hit more home runs. If they did, there wouldn't be a federal investigation going on right now.

[caliber66]

And, nobody who's in good health gets prescribed HGH, do they? No reputable MD would write a scrip for a dude who came in and said he wanted to hit more home runs. If they did, there wouldn't be a federal investigation going on right now.

He did have Tommy John surgery in July, 2003. Frankly, I don't know if HGH is often prescribed to help with recovery from surgery. It is prescribed to prevent muscle loss in some situations, which seems applicable to me...